▪ Maccabeats Rosh Hashanah Song
▪ The White House’s Advice for Your Rabbi
▪ Single-Sex Education Is Assailed in Report
▪ Young Rabbis Love Israel But Lean to Left of Elders
▪ Jewish Publication Society’s Sale Effectively Ends Century-Old House
▪ Fashion-Conscious Orthodox Women Push Limits of Modest Dress
▪ Retracing Herzl’s footsteps in Europe, Israelis find Diaspora life has much to offer
▪ Digitized Bodleian manuscript of Maimonides’ Code of Jewish Law
▪ Aish Kodesh rabbi translates Rav Kook’s seminal work
▪ The Kosher Switch: A Response from the Tzomet Institute’s Rabbi Yisrael Rosen
▪ Touched By Angels
▪ The Ethics of Reviewing
▪ Jewish paper, non-Jewish owner?
▪ Aliyah up 19 percent for Jewish year 5771
▪ SALT Friday
▪ Carlebach-Inspired Shul Finding Home In Crown Hts.
▪ The Subway That Stops In New York
▪ Haredi rescue service open on Shabbat
▪ New store will fill apparel needs of Orthodox Jewish women and girls
▪ Wave of new holiday prayer books changing the ways to worship
▪ Roundup of new prayer books (no mention of forthcoming Siddur Mesorat HaRav)
▪ Android app helps users keep kosher during Jewish holidays
▪ Why doesn’t religion make us better people?
▪ What Would a Smart School Do
▪ SALT Thursday
▪ Rabbi Benjamin Yudin: 40 Years in the Rabbinate
▪ Jewish news network to begin broadcasting
▪ Advocacy group taking Sa’ar to court over ‘Ethiopian ghetto’
▪ Restrictions on rabbis from performing weddings removed
▪ Is Jewish life in Hungary and Poland sustainable?
▪ State justifies religious cadets’ dismissal
▪ Hundreds of Haredim protest girls’ school in Beit Shemesh
▪ Once Upon a Gay….
▪ On non-Jews with rabbinic ordination, real and imagined
▪ Group urges rabbis to use the civil pulpit
▪ SALT Wednesday
▪ Kosherswitch: Falsely indicating that Rav Moshe Sternbuch endorses product
▪ Jewish supporters of the Confederacy abounded
▪ J’lem: Police arrest 1 of Or Hachaim book store vandalizers
▪ R. Aaron Levine-Milton Friedman exchange (PDF)
▪ Making a Loving Mockery of Modern Orthodoxy
▪ Turkish Jews Voice Wary Confidence About Future
▪ iTunes labels Jewish music as ‘Christian & Gospel’
▪ Migron rabbinical conference slams home demolitions
▪ Rabbis slam ‘price tag’ activities
▪ Go The F**k to Sleep at the Nat’l Museum of Amer. Jewish History
▪ Compatibilism: Can free will and determinism co-exist?
▪ Jewish School Grads Focus on Persecution
▪ SALT Tuesday
▪ Mesira Analysis By Rabbi Avi Shafran
▪ Golan v. Holder, Copyright and the Soncino Talmud
▪ How do you spell Tikkun Olam? (PDF)
▪ Montenegro to make Judaism a state religion
▪ Shortage of lulavs looms prior to Succot
▪ Jewish groups worried by Vatican gesture
▪ YUTorah Rosh Hashanah To Go
▪ SALT Monday
▪ Last week’s news & links
Rules: link
The Tikkun Olam PDF doesn’t work.
All the articles in the Spring 2011 issue now seem to be available at: http://www.hakirah.org/CurrentIssue.htm (including the one linked above).
Have there been any articles explaining why the major Jewish organizations are not sponsoring UN rallies this week?
KT
Joel rich:
i think i read that there is a scheduled rally sponsored by a messianic jewish organization (or something similar) and jewish organizations didn’t want to be seen as co-sponsoring.
soncino link was disappointing. i’ve heard about this story in the past and was hoping for more background info.
re. r. shafran’s article:
“His implication of other Jews in the crime for which he has paid his debt to society will not remove any threat to society”
really? putting criminals behind bars remove a threat to society?
“it will only create the likelihood that other Jews may come to harm”
amazing. he is more concerned about “harm” to criminals than protecting society at large.
“But for something to qualify as chillul Hashem it must first be a sin”
the chillul hashem here is davka that he is protecting others have sinned
“American history includes a long and illustrious history of citizens putting personal conscience before the law of the land. The civil disobedience of the 1950s and 1960s in the face of racial discrimination is rightly celebrated today”
he compares civil disobedience to improve society with that which would tear it apart?
“If a person is willing to give up his freedom in the service of a higher ideal, he should be respected for his selfless and principled choice.”
so now this ex-con is himself a holy martyr?
“The idea of a requirement that a Jew seek to protect the well-being of other Jews”
this is not about protecting jews. it is about covering up potential criminal activity
” But even leaving aside the fact that many religious and ethnic groups display special concern for “their own””
yes, let’s praise and adopt the worst aspects of other groups
“where a Jew poses a threat to others—such as a violent criminal or child abuser—and cannot be controlled by communal efforts”
it is amazing that in 2011 people still feel the american jewish community can successfully selp-police its violent criminals and child abusers
i just don’t understand his logic. he admits that the US legal system is basically a just one and is not anti-semitic. so then what is the difference between informing on a jew to a civil court and to a beis din? if he is concerned by harm that will befall the accused, simimar harm can occur in the beis din?
(i understand arguments such as a preference for trial according to halachah rather than civil law, etc., but this is not what is arguing.)
Abba, What is he is arguing is that Jews get a pass in the legal system. That is, Jews don’t have to testify about members of their group when called upon to do so.If ever there was an issue of eivah, this would be it. Now all the anti-Semites have proof that Jews stick together and help each other out even when they are breaking the law. Here is a case where Jews are even willing to go to jail so that other Jews don’t get caught. In the eyes of anyone who reads this story, it means that Jews value protecting Jewish criminals, more than law and order.
Can you imagine what would happen if blacks, hispanics etc. stopped testifying in cases where their own were implicated?
This article justifies the worst stereotypes of Jews and gives ammunition to the anti-Semites, since it states that Jews won’t work with the justice system for the benefit of the community at large. How are non-Jews supposed to react when they see this?
Avi Shafran, “His implication of other Jews in the crime for which he has paid his debt to society will not remove any threat to society; it will only create the likelihood that other Jews may come to harm.”
Shafran’s article was properly not aimed at the courts who he realizes would not be swayed by his arguments. The court most likely will treat him as any witness refusing to answer a grand jury without a legal justification. Indeed, reliance on religious law that might potentially lead others to ignore the court would strengthen the need to sentence such a person to hinder such actions in the future.
But in terms of the Jewish community I see a couple of issues past scandals raise here:
* The application of mesirah in a context where the Jewish community acknowledges someone did wrong (fraud generally, tax fraud [for most I hope]) but where the batei din will not impose any punishment or sanction.
* The belief that the rabbinate is able to tell a “past” harm from a “future” harm.
* The inability of the batei din to punish a person who commits fraud, whether against a Jew or not.
Also, I note that this is in a case where the Spinka Rebbe said that he was wrong, his community was wrong and that they were going to take steps to make sure this never happened again. Yet,the cover up for the very same crime continues.
“If a person is willing to give up his freedom in the service of a higher ideal, he should be respected for his selfless and principled choice.”
So I guess we should respect the mafioso whose “selfless and principled choice” is to follow the rule of omerta (as binding on him as halacha is on us) and refuse to testify against his comrades in murder, drug-dealing, prostitution and other similar cases. Maybe when he gets out of jail, if this selfless and principled mafioso is Jewish (a la Lansky) we can give him maftir or maybe even maftir Yonah as a sign of the respect we have for his selfless and principled decision.
One can certainly disagree with the stance taken, but we should remember that prominent MO have been given the equivalent of Maftir Yonah in similar circumstances without anyone saying a word. Obviously,issues with respect to adherence to CM know no hashkafic boundaries.
Re the pdf on aleinu: Really fascinating… but.. Why are the footnotes longer than the actual article?! gosh that makes it hard to read!
Avi Shafran: I don’t understand. I’m not a rabbi so your justification for claiming conscientious objection in refusing to follow reasonable laws of criminal justice is over my head, but If their is a safek chillul Hashem, shouldn’t that push you in the direction of being meikil (or is it machmir?) to prevent it, and paskening that there is no din of mesira in this case?
Joseph,
Unfortunately, for many O Jews, the halachot of lashon hara and mesira ARE the equivalent of the Mafiosi “omerta”, whereby you never rat out your fellow Jew, ever.
STEVE BRIZEL:
“but we should remember that prominent MO have been given the equivalent of Maftir Yonah in similar circumstances without anyone saying a word. Obviously,issues with respect to adherence to CM know no hashkafic boundaries.”
no one here has said anything about this being a RW vs. MO issue. is it our fault that gil linked davka to an article on the subject by a prominent mainstream RW spokesperson? do you really think that if gil had linked to a similar article penned by a prominent mainstream MO personality in jewish action we wouldn’t be equally critical? shame on you for injecting divisive hashkafic overtones into the conversation.
“One can certainly disagree with the stance taken”
do you?
Abba-Yes.
“do you really think that if gil had linked to a similar article penned by a prominent mainstream MO personality in jewish action we wouldn’t be equally critical? ”
Can one really imagine a serious MO thinker writing such an article in the United States?
Did Richard Joel refrain from prosecuting Jewish criminals when he was an assistant DA in the Bronx?
I guess it is too late to hope that no one saw Shafran’s article.
R. Shafran’s article is muddled, not clear who is he writing for and what is his point. I do think he realizes that the Court in this case is not going to be swayed, certainly not by what he writes.
But I must object to this statement:
So I guess we should respect the mafioso whose “selfless and principled choice” is to follow the rule of omerta (as binding on him as halacha is on us) and refuse to testify against his comrades in murder, drug-dealing, prostitution and other similar cases. Maybe when he gets out of jail, if this selfless and principled mafioso is Jewish (a la Lansky) we can give him maftir or maybe even maftir Yonah as a sign of the respect we have for his selfless and principled decision
Whether you like it or not, the position taken in this case is one that many, if not most poskim, would agree to. R. Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva, and one of the issues he raises is that the punishment meeted out by the secular authorities here for financial crimes — prolonged imprisonment — is not authorized by the Torah, and is far crueler than the compensation required by halakha. (Although the person involved should thank the Almighty that he was caught by the feds and not sent to state prison. Federal prison is far, far more comfortable than state prisons. Some even call it “Club Fed.”)
The person involved is no tsaddik. OTOH, he was offered a plea deal that would have required him to provide testimony, and he refused to do so, resulting in a longer sentence. So he has already paid for his adherence to the halakha as his rabbonim determine it. He will pay further when he is held in contempt and punished for that. That is certainly a level of mesiras nefesh.
And Joseph Kaplan, I don’t know if you practice criminal law, but I used to, and let me tell you, the alternative — defendants eager to rat out each other, and often exxagerating or even perjuring themselves to get a better deal — is not pretty and often does not result in justice.
(Let’s not forget that what they did is tax fraud. The victim was the U.S. government, which knows how to take care of itself, as the results here have shown. That is a far, far cry from the victims of child abuse or molestation. One can only hope that the fear of long prison sentences will have the desired deterrent effect.)
“Steve Brizel on September 19, 2011 at 2:12 pm
One can certainly disagree with the stance taken, but we should remember that prominent MO have been given the equivalent of Maftir Yonah in similar circumstances without anyone saying a word. Obviously,issues with respect to adherence to CM know no hashkafic boundaries.
”
Steve comments like these, which are complete non-sequiturs, make it clear that your purpose in commenting is rarely to contribute or even to advance an argument – rather, it is to fight for Establishment Orthodoxy, in whatever shape or form it takes on in the discussion.
not all fed’s are club fed. (unless you’re mafia, and can “arrange” your linguini in tomato sauce. but even there / them, the medical care is atrocious.)
since ppl bring up the MO vs RW issue on this, i suggest they might want to outdo the (ostensibly) MO person, who started this case / mesirah issue to begin with.
2. footnotes — there was a post here a while back on footnoting, though it concentrated on footnoting on the page vs at end of article, the comments wrre more illuminating (as usual, here).
3. since you post on copyright issues, http://baishavaad.com/library/journal/2011/07/07/parshas-vayikra-theft-its-restitution/ (article at end) is informative.
4. montenegro — the european concept of religious freedom only permits state recognized religions (though even there they discriminate.) thus, russia always recognized judaism as a religion, even the communists couldnt overcome it, though they wre against russian orthodoxy (the official state religion, as opposed to recognized religion), too. thus, scientologists have a pblm with germany. and the austritt issue was a manifestation of recognized religion (though that was a breakaway).
though europeans are trending towards the us concept of religious freedom.
TAL:
“one of the issues he raises is that the punishment meeted out by the secular authorities here for financial crimes — prolonged imprisonment — is not authorized by the Torah”
i understand this objection. but r. shafran didn’t say this. he simply thought it was praiseworthy not to do something that would hurt another jew. this has serious implications vis-a-vis larger civil society.
Tal,
Tax fraud is _not_ a victimless crime (other than the government). When the government doesn’t get the money it needs, we all suffer, whether through higher taxes or lower services.
TAL:
“Tax fraud is _not_ a victimless crime”
yes, i wanted to note that also.
MDJ:
“R. Shafran’s article is muddled, not clear who is he writing for and what is his point.”
but he published it and now it’s there for all to see
“I do think he realizes that the Court in this case is not going to be swayed, certainly not by what he writes.”
of course he wasn’t writing in ami magazine for the court. he was writing to promote the decision not to be a moser and to whitewash the guy for amcha.
MMhY — your are mistaken in your description of “the european concept of religious freedom”. E.g. laïcité in France.
IH — yes, france is diff, cause of the french revoltion. but other european countries do.
this laïcité concept seems like the (supposed) interpretations of several us state’s “blaine amendment”, though the blaine was devised by protestants as an anti catholic law.
Another example: Scientology is a recognized religion in some European countries, but not others.
i understand this objection. but r. shafran didn’t say this. he simply thought it was praiseworthy not to do something that would hurt another jew. this has serious implications vis-a-vis larger civil society.
I am not R. Shafran’s editor nor his defense atty. The context he was talking about was tesifying against another Jew in a criminal case that would lead to incarceration. The person refusing to do so has himself earned additional incarceration because of it, and will likely eearn more. That is what he finds praiseworthy.
Tax fraud is _not_ a victimless crime (other than the government). When the government doesn’t get the money it needs, we all suffer, whether through higher taxes or lower services.
I never said it was a victimless crime. What I said is that the government is able to take care of itself. It has the power of the IRS and the Justice Dept. to go after fraudfeasors — as they indeed did here. That is an awesome power, I know it firsthand.
Tal, I’ve never practiced criminal law.
As for my comment. He doesn’t want to testify and is willing to go to jail longer, that’s his decision. But he is no more or less “selfless and principled” than a mafioso who does exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason.
>>I never said it was a victimless crime. What I said is that the government is able to take care of itself. It has the power of the IRS and the Justice Dept. to go after fraudfeasors — as they indeed did here. That is an awesome power, I know it firsthand.
I’m not sure I know what your point here was, then.
MDJ:
“I’m not sure I know what your point here was, then.”
i think he meant that goverment prosecutorial powers have many tools at their disposal and can do their job without relying on the testimony of one person?
“joel rich on September 19, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Have there been any articles explaining why the major Jewish organizations are not sponsoring UN rallies this week?
KT”
I was on the East Side yesterday and the Security was extreme everywhere.
“R. Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva, and one of the issues he raises is that the punishment meeted out by the secular authorities here for financial crimes — prolonged imprisonment — is not authorized by the Torah, and is far crueler than the compensation required by halakha”
Of course, the only realistic white collar deterrent is substantial incarceration-if penalties were restricted to monetary ones-the probability of being caught times the penalty would not be a financial deterrent to a fraudelent financial transaction.
BTW penalties for financial frauds have increased since Rav Moshes time and certainly the immunity of the real beneficiaries of fraud has disappeared. Compare the tendenct to indict Rabbonim now vs Rav Moshes time DA etc would tend to pretend it was all done by local small time bookkeeper.
We have no business commenting on Vatican matters of faith-either if they agree with what is good for us or disagree with what is bad for us.
““But for something to qualify as chillul Hashem it must first be a sin””
Is that really true?
“Is that really true?” Not always, reference the Gibeonites, Gittin 46a, and see Equality Lost pp. 96-7.
“But whereas other groups emphasized points of cultural pride in their historical selections, those educated in Jewish day schools were concerned primarily with persecution.”
calling salo baron, calling salo baron.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/science/20dawkins.html?_r=1&ref=science
==========================
His comments on religion make me think in a way he is very religious about things he will or will not believe in.
KT
Jon wrote:
“Steve comments like these, which are complete non-sequiturs, make it clear that your purpose in commenting is rarely to contribute or even to advance an argument – rather, it is to fight for Establishment Orthodoxy, in whatever shape or form it takes on in the discussion”
Actually, my purpose was to point out that knowledge and practice of CM across the board of the Torah observant world is in a sorry state. Please don’t distort my words to suit your POV and preordained conclusions.
re kosherswitch… since when is a random rumor with out any actual evidence news?
A few days before rosh hashana, shouldn’t you be avoiding the possiblity of spreading lashon harah?
avi: What is the random rumor? I asked Dr. Eidensohn to consult with Rav Sternbuch, whom he knows very well, and this was the response he received from Rav Sternbuch’s gabbai.
avi: What is the random rumor?
The word “falsely” is without basis. They have a letter and no one has claimed its a fake. All you know is that the rabbi is now against it. But that doesn’t change that at one point he wrote a letter that basically indicated the item was permitted (which is all they really need for it to be an endorsement).
They do not have a letter from Rav Sternbuch.
I believe that the Kosherswitch website misleads the general public as to the permissibility of using their invention on shabbat. They insist that hillul shabbat using their switch is impossible. Yet some prominent poskim disagree with its general use by the public. The endorsements that they cite typically don’t address the issue of general use vs. use in exigencies or use by shomrei shabbat, and it is misleading to simply cite names without informing the public of exactly what they are endorsing. The claim made in at least some of the endorsements that this device will further the messianic age is pure rabbinic hyperbole. As if activating light switches was the only hillul shabbat that some of our brethren practice. On the other hand, its use in hospitals and similar settings should be promoted. Its use by the general public under special conditions would also be desirable such as activation of emergency devices such as a radio (in Israel).
Sorry, got confused there.
mycroft — “Compare the tendenct to indict Rabbonim now vs Rav Moshes time DA etc would tend to pretend it was all done by local small time bookkeeper.”
actually, that’s what the DA did (in now obscure MTJ case). (though i am not implying RMF or others were involved.)
2. shabbat switch — i was always leery of the kosher lamp. lets face it — if you or me would have come up with such a product, we would be bounced out of any (kosher) store. but get a letter from the “right” rav, and voila!
(not moving cause ball bearings (which are notorious for breaking all the time after use, even simple use) “might” prevent the double wall from not moving / muktza issue.)
of course, electrcity on shabbat is not necessarily such a clear and cut “issur”. though it was accepted as an “issur”.
3. IH — i hope you are agreeing with me in citing scientology. also, its prob due totheir “protexia” (beautiful people) and (probably) innocuousness.
4. Y aharaon — ???activating emergency devices such as radio??? i can advocate many other heterim based on such a flimsy claim. hospitals, ok. how about an eruv in manhattan — wasnt that rabbi lamm’s original advocvacy?
MJ on September 19, 2011 at 2:35 pm
Avi Shafran: I don’t understand. I’m not a rabbi so your justification for claiming conscientious objection in refusing to follow reasonable laws of criminal justice is over my head, but If their is a safek chillul Hashem, shouldn’t that push you in the direction of being meikil (or is it machmir?) to prevent it, and paskening that there is no din of mesira in this case?
Suddenly concerned,eh? But e.g. a week ago,when it came to voting Weprin ..
“hospitals, ok. how about an eruv in manhattan — wasnt that rabbi lamm’s original advocvacy?”
When I heard R. Lamm address this in the 1970s from the JC pulpit, I remember he spoke about women with babies and toddlers who, without an eruv, were forced to remain in their apartment all Shabbat which, on a summer Shabbat, meant, for the children, for 36 hours (approx). He may have also referred to hospitals; I don’t remember. But I vividly remember the sensitivity he expressed about young mothers and their young children.
” The endorsements that they cite typically don’t address the issue of general use vs. use in exigencies or use by shomrei shabbat, and it is misleading to simply cite names without informing the public of exactly what they are endorsing. The claim made in at least some of the endorsements that this device will further the messianic age is pure rabbinic hyperbole.”
So the rabbis give a letter (a) which doesn’t adequately deal with the serious issues involved and (b) which contains hyperbole. Perhaps instead of criticizing the company, the rabbis could be asked to please do a better job.
MiMedinat HaYam on September 20, 2011 at 6:29 pm
“mycroft — “Compare the tendenct to indict Rabbonim now vs Rav Moshes time DA etc would tend to pretend it was all done by local small time bookkeeper.”
actually, that’s what the DA did (in now obscure MTJ case). (though i am not implying RMF or others were involved.)”
I was stating it as a hypothetical but one of those who pled guilty was a contemporary from YU-it was writtten about at the time in local media. A year or so later I ran into that person on East Broadway near the Garden Cafeteria and asked him about others knowledge.
“abba’s rantings on September 20, 2011 at 8:37 am
“But whereas other groups emphasized points of cultural pride in their historical selections, those educated in Jewish day schools were concerned primarily with persecution.”
calling salo baron, calling salo baron.”
One should read Baron-I about 3 decades ago -read all the volumes with the footnotes-don’t remember too much about the footnotes other than one then Rabbi in the UWS had a father and grandfather both cited by Baron. Oh the Rabbi was a Gateshead musmach.
mycroft on September 20, 2011 at 8:55 pm
““abba’s rantings on September 20, 2011 at 8:37 am
“But whereas other groups emphasized points of cultural pride in their historical selections, those educated in Jewish day schools were concerned primarily with persecution.”
calling salo baron, calling salo baron.””
Of course Baron emphasizes that the Jewish persecution complex is overstated-see eg more Jews around hundred years after beginning of crusades than when crusades began.
joseph k. – “Perhaps instead of criticizing the company, the rabbis could be asked to please do a better job.”
doesn’t mean the company did not know which haskamahs were given for which reasons and just lump together so its impossible to figure it out. that would put the company in the lifnei eivar situation at best. btw, do not disagree that the rabbis need to do a better job in writing haskamahs that are detailed in usage of such product.
“avi: What is the random rumor? I asked Dr. Eidensohn to consult with Rav Sternbuch, whom he knows very well, and this was the response he received from Rav Sternbuch’s gabbai.”
I am shocked by this answer. In other words, you asked a guy to ask someone, and instead he came back with the answer from someone else, who claims to have heard it from the person you wanted. It was then posted on the internet. This is how urban legends are born.
This is reportedly, more accurate than a direct conversation between the person in question and the person reporting what was said…
I’m not saying the statements, either way are wrong, or right… it just stinks of improper behavior.
“Of course Baron emphasizes that the Jewish persecution complex is overstated-see eg more Jews around hundred years after beginning of crusades than when crusades began.”
It is estimated that 100 years after the holocaust there will be more Jews than there were before the holocaust…. and according to this website in 1993 there were more! http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_408.html (not sure where 5 million Jews disappeared to though 🙂 )
Re compatibalism: missing the relevance. PhilosophyTv is great and all, but compatibalism is hardly “beleaguered” – on the PhilPapers survey, a strong majority of philosophers endorsed some form of compatibalism. If anything, it’s a position almost as popular as Atheism among philosophers!
Agree with Joseph Kaplan. The rabbis we have right now are clearly oblivious to the way their words are used – words that meant one thing to the group of people they were sending them to 80 years ago, that take on a vastly different meaning today to the vast numbers reading them all over the Internet and in mass advertising.
“my purpose was to point out that knowledge and practice of CM across the board of the Torah observant world is in a sorry state”
Agreed and sadly it is an issue that no one cares about.
avi on September 21, 2011 at 2:03 am
“Of course Baron emphasizes that the Jewish persecution complex is overstated-see eg more Jews around hundred years after beginning of crusades than when crusades began.”
“It is estimated that 100 years after the holocaust there will be more Jews than there were before the holocaust…. and according to this website in 1993 there were more! http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_408.html (not sure where 5 million Jews disappeared to though 🙂 )”
I was sloppy in my writing I believe Baron wrote that there were more Jews in Europe after 100 years of the Crusades than there were before the beginning of the Crusades-no one believes that Jews in Europe will ever get close to the amount that there were there in 1930.
“(though i am not implying RMF or others were involved.)”
I always find it strange when people ascribe to gadol x y or z the ability to know everything about everything in the world but don’t esxpect them to be aware of what happens in their own institutions. that of course, does not state any opinion on this circa 3 decade old case.
“I was sloppy in my writing I believe Baron wrote that there were more Jews in Europe after 100 years of the Crusades than there were before the beginning of the Crusades-no one believes that Jews in Europe will ever get close to the amount that there were there in 1930.”
Only because of where Jews are allowed to live and move to. After WWII, they could go all over the world. After the crusades, they could go where?
My point, is that after 100 years, we would expect the population to rise to pre persecution numbers. You would have to destroy over 70% (random chosen number) of the population for it not to.
I don’t understand why it’s so surprising to people to learn that Jews fought for and supported the South.
Jews have fought against Jews in wars throughout history. Sometimes internecine wars such as those between the kindoms of Judah and Israel, or the Wars of the Macabees (which started as a war against Jewish Helenists), or inter-rebel fighting during the great rebellion, and finally the Etzel-Hagana skirmishes such as the altalena incident.
Other times – and probably more frequently – this was as participants on either side of a larger war involving nations. It is quite likely that Jews for for both the Romans and the Parthians. During the American Revolution there were Jewish “Yankees” as well as Jewish Loyalists. In World War I Jews fought for the Austrian-Hungarian empire and Germany as well as the opposing Allied nations. Even in World War II there were Jews who fought for the Axis powers – alongside SS troops!! – against Russia
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/1134/finland-where-jews-fought-on-the-side-of-the-nazis/
So the civil war was really no different.
The State of Israel is really a blessing for the Jews in this regard.
as a final note I would point out that Titus’ second in command at Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple was a Jew
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Alexander
food for thought – especially when thinking of certain types of Jews in high positions in government of foreign countries (inluding the US) or international corporations
Sorry, 70% is probably too high. Let’s say 4 generations. Each generation having 3 kids per couple. That’s 5 times the population after 100 years, which means you would have to kill more than 20% to even think that you wouldn’t get replacement. And ‘decimation’ is only 10%
On Jews and the Confederacy, how about a more recent example of Jews and Apartheid in South Africa. I came across as a result of the posting on “British Chief Rabbis Who Never Were”:
“In Johannesburg, South Africa, a call by Chief Rabbi L. I. Rabinowitz for prayers to be recited in synagogues under his jurisdiction for “political prisoners “, was vetoed following strong objections raised by members of the Jewish community and representations by them to the South African Jewish Board of Deputies and the Federation of Synagogues.
In a sermon at one of Johannesburg’s oldest synagogues. Rabbi Dr. Kossowsky said that he thoroughly disapproved of involving the synagogue and the Jewish community as a whole in activities which in any way bear a political character. There was no such thing as a Jewish community political attitude, said the rabbi, every South African Jew was entitled to hold whatever political views he wished.” (ref: http://www.ajr.org.uk/journalpdf/1960_may.pdf)
Apropos Tzohar’s win to “help many young people and allow them to marry in a Jewish wedding and not run away to get married in civil ceremony in Cyprus,” I came across this fascinating piece recently about the same problem in Lebanon (also a Millet-law country):
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-News/2011/Sep-07/148117-civil-marriages-on-the-rise-amongst-lebanese.ashx#axzz1Yadsd3yV
avi: Shocked? He’s out of the country and asked the gabbai, whom he knows and trusts. That’s like saying that asking the White House Chief of Staff for a public statement on the President’s opinion is irresponsible. This is how Rav Sternbuch works. And the gabbai knows that Dr. Eidensohn can easily check up on him so he has extra incentive to be honest.
This is the modern halachic process: I heard from someone who heard…
IH: Right, because everything in the Talmud is first-hand reporting.
R’IH,
I think part of the issue is getting used to a “new world” where what one says or does is immediately faithfully and verifiably transmitted to every corner of the globe instantaneously. Thus an off the cuff response to a hypothetical situation without all the data reverberates immediately as torah misinai – it’s much like politicians had to get used to evrything that they say at a state fair to a passer by could be on national tv/internet 30 seconds later rorally out of context. It takes a very different mindset to operate in that world.
KT
SHACHAR HAAMIM:
jews in the civil war find themselves on opposite sides of the battle field in appreciable numbers for one the first times in seventeen centuries and you think that people untutored in jewish history shouldn’t be surprised to hear about it?
R’ Joel — In part, but as Micha observes in the parallel Kosher Switch thread: “this whole notion of relying on word of mouth from “the gedolei haposeqim” is a new invention only enabled by modern communications — and isn’t the way halakhah is supposed to work.”
abba – the revolutionary war preceded the civil war. and these were a step up for the Jews – usually a war meant the Jews getting killed by both sides!
SHACHAR:
“the revolutionary war preceded the civil war”
there were indeed jewish loyalist families (althought the number decreased signifigantly once the war was well under way), but how many jews actually served with the british? (jews in england did daven for the king to be victorious and we have amazing tefilos from them for the king, but how many were in uniform?)
aside from the crimean war (i’m not sure about it), as far as i know the civil war was the first time since antiquity that jews faced off in war in any appreciable numbers (or even at all?)
IH-look at the evidence on the ground and ask yourself how many S African Jewish families made aliyah, both before and after the fall of apartheid, because of their legitimate fears that the evil system of apartheid would be replaced by a far worse political system and reality rooted in both the rhetoric of Communism ( Joe Slovo-a primary ideological ally for Mandela) and the openly anti Semitic rhetoric of Desmond Toto.
Steve, did you just contend that the current reality of S.Africa is “far worsE” than apartheid? Or did you mean “far worse for the jews”?
Rabbi Rosen of Tzomet comes out against the Kosher Switch:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2011/09/kosher-switch-problematic-haskomas.html
Rav Neuwirth has clarified that he only allowed it for refuah and safety purposes.
Steve – sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I was not making a political point.
I find your response morally reprehensible, however. Would you also defend the Nazi invasion of Poland “because of their legitimate fears that the evil system of Nazism would be replaced by a far worse political system and reality rooted in the rhetoric of Communism”? Or Japan’s invasion of China?
When the only tool you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail…
“When the only tool you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail…”
Those aren’t the lyrics from the famous Peter, Paul and Mary folksong, right?
aside from the crimean war (i’m not sure about it), as far as i know the civil war was the first time since antiquity that jews faced off in war in any appreciable numbers (or even at all?)
that is simply not true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_revolt_against_Heraclius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_military_history
IH-Your comments re S Africa are all too reminiscent of Mike Wallace’s attempt to browbeat then DF Sharon about Israel’s arms deals with S Africa. Like it or not, many German and Polish Jews mistakenly viewed Communism as a worse threat than Nazism. See for intance, a letter that can only be read as “Divrei Bracha” by a German Agudist leader upon Hitler’s election. I fail to see your comparison with the acts of external aggression that were perpetrated by Germany against Poland or Japan against China.
One cannot deny that many S African Jews voted with their feet when they realized that Apartheid would be replaced with a possibly worse political system with Joe Slovo, a communist, as Mandela’s chief advisor, and with Archbishop Tutu as its chief Anti Israel cheerleader. Think of Stanley Fischer-the head of Israel’s bank-his family left the then British colony of Rhodesia long before it degenerated into Mubabe’s Zimbabwe.
Emma-apartheid’s abolition is a great step forward in the history of human rights. Whether one can say the same about the current South African remains to be seen,regardless of the fact that many Jewish residents of South Africa have voted with their feet.
“and it is misleading to simply cite names without informing the public of exactly what they are endorsing.”
as are most haskamot misleading -most haven’t read the book
“Rabbi Benjamin Yudin, who was born and raised in the Crown Heights of the 1950s, ”
Good article about Rabbi Yudin-but I doubt he was born in the 1950s-
ANON:
“that is simply not true”
i think it is true.
i was referring to situations of jews each other on the battlefield post-antiquity. i’m not sure how the links you provided show it’s not true.
Re: Chabad article: “It’s okay in some Chabad House out there, but not in Crown Heights.”
לא-יהיה לך בכיסך, אבן ואבן: גדולה, וקטנה.
How different are the Judaisms that we “sell” and that we “buy”?
I took down the second Chabad article. It wasn’t what I thought it was.
“joseph k. – ‘Perhaps instead of criticizing the company, the rabbis could be asked to please do a better job.'”
Joseph K. is commenting on Hirhurim? Cool! Who’s next? Leopold Bloom?
I wish ms garber hatzlacha in her business!
the article is odd though – citing random websites as “support” for what the “orthodox” dress code is? not to mention that i still have not figured out what is so hard about shopping in not-specifically-frum stores. i’ve owned many many knee-covering skirts in my life, and at most one or two were purchased at frum stores.
i am, however, curious why you think this link will be of interest to your (mostly male) readership?
R. Gil: Please add this lecture of R. Berman’s, I think it is of interest:
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764032
aiwac: Thanks, that looks very interesting. But I’ll leave it to Joel Rich and his audio roundup.
Emma – Why do you think so few women read/participate in discussion on hirhurim? I appreciate that some may lack the talmudic background to get involved in halachic discussions, but there are other areas of general interest.
emma: i am, however, curious why you think this link will be of interest to your (mostly male) readership?
It wasn’t meant as a shopping tip but as an interesting story about a new business.
From the Carlebach article:
“Carlebach, perhaps the community’s most prodigal son”
Since when was Rabbi Carlebach known for his extravagant lifestyle? Am I missing something?
Curious: I read it as meaning “lost son”
If anything, Reb Shlomele was lost to Lakewood, not CHABAD.
You add videos to this list sometimes, right? Here’s a Rosh Hashanah one that just came out the other day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bO_Az3bkZk
Same joke done, I think, funnier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29-4KKWcU_U
Emma-For those of us who are married with daughters, any such store would be a welcome addition in any MO or Chareidi neighborhood.
“One of the Gaonim said someone who doesn’t eat hamin on shabbat is suspected of being Karaite
”
i thought that is accepted halacha, today.
2. tzohar article — i assume (but dont know for a fact) that charedi rabbonim have the same system (their maariages are recognized, even thoygh they dont “recognize” (to various degrees) the state.)
3. did tzohar undertake not to marry cohanim with gerushot, some level of giyur requiremen ts, require some form of get for divorcees, etc, (in no particular order). it seems ynet doesnt know the issues.
or is this some form of civil marriage? (while on the subject, can a jew marry off a non jewish couple in a civil marriage, or is there some halachic argument against?)
4. the “modest” clothing shop in highland park — my sister in law tells me its appripopriate for MO, too.
5. the carlebach (type) shul in crown heights — the business plan is faulty — crown heightsers dont have $ to fund / support such a shul.
raphael a — actually, lakewood still accepts him. (was always curious if his nigunim, etc are sung in LES shuls; they definitely are in lakewood.) (obviously, unmemntioned here issues are not a pblm in lakewood. his music is accepted.)
“It wasn’t meant as a shopping tip but as an interesting story about a new business.”
I guess I am just not sure what makes it interesting. Is it just that something frum has made it to a secular paper, and in a somewhat amusing/hokey way (“Orthodox Jewish women dress modestly as required by Jewish law, according to http://www.orthodox-jews.com.”) at that? Anyway, as i said, good luck to her, though not my cup of tea.
J.: “Emma – Why do you think so few women read/participate in discussion on hirhurim? I appreciate that some may lack the talmudic background to get involved in halachic discussions, but there are other areas of general interest.”
I would be willing to chalk it up _mostly_ to a general issue of blogging culture being male-dominated. most bloggers (other than, say, mommy blogs) are male, and that includes frum bloggers. i have not read up on this but i believe the phenomenon has been discussed and even studied in some detail by social critics. some of the factors at work on hirhurim, such as the possible distaste of women for some of the more competitive forms of discourse here, are part of that larger culture of blogging as well (and if anything somewhat mitigated here). personally i also feel like this blog and the comments feel like a real locker room sometimes. hard to put my finger on exactly why, but it has to do in part with the shared male-only experiences (eg, YU) of so many commentors.
but let me pose a different question: many of the male readers have wives or sisters who are of similar backgrounds and interests to themselves. what are those women doing while the men are reading hirhurim?
“MiMedinat HaYam on September 22, 2011 at 7:19 pm
raphael a — actually, lakewood still accepts him. (was always curious if his nigunim, etc are sung in LES shuls; they definitely are in lakewood.) (obviously, unmemntioned here issues are not a pblm in lakewood. his music is accepted.)”
The question is why is his music accepted?
“Why do you think so few women read/participate in discussion on hirhurim?”
“am, however, curious why you think this link will be of interest to your (mostly male) readership?”
emma – “many of the male readers have wives or sisters who are of similar backgrounds and interests to themselves. ”
similar backgrounds – most likely. similar interest – less likely.
“what are those women doing while the men are reading hirhurim?” complaining about their husbands obsessions with “jewish porn” – in a laughing manner [my better half coining the phrase – although i think “frum porn” is more appropriate – similar to “food porn” (ala food network etc)].
“Tznius sexy could go in two different directions,” added Josephs, who recently gave a talk, “Frum and Fabulous,” to a group of Modern Orthodox women in Cherry Hill, N.J. She said there are women who conform to tznius and look stylish, retaining a “mystique” that “leaves something to the imagination.” Then there are women who “follow the rules, but not the spirit of the law,” managing to cover all the right areas and yet still look “too sexualized.”
===============================================
Interesting dialectic – one might have thought tzniut in its broad form (for men as well) would minimize mystique (if it means an air or attitude of mystery and reverence developing around something or someone )
KT
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/education/23single.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=single%20sex%20schools&st=cse
Single-sex education is ineffective, misguided and may actually increase gender stereotyping, a paper to be published Friday asserts
KT
ruvie – yes, i realize “similar interests” was an unjustified assumption. so why aren’t frum women interested in the same things as frum men? probably has to do with education, mostly. (I happen to have had a very, err, egalitarian education…)
more specifics – what is your better half doing in addition to laughing at you (and really, your comment was almost a gift of an example for the original question – man joking about his wife nagging him = classic boys club talk!)? is she reading other blogs more interesting to her? sitting on the couch waiting for you to talk to her? reading romance novels? doing useful household tasks?
but really, today is another example: a link about how women dress, which is going to be discussed by a bunch of men, including those who predictably decry our obsession with how women dress.
“MiMedinat HaYam on September 22, 2011 at 7:19 pm
raphael a — actually, lakewood still accepts him. (was always curious if his nigunim, etc are sung in LES shuls; they definitely are in lakewood.) (obviously, unmemntioned here issues are not a pblm in lakewood. his music is accepted.)”
“The question is why is his music accepted?”
For MMHY: I know that his nigunim in Lakewood (my BIL davened for the amud in Lakewood this past Pesach (I was there) and he used only Carlebach niggunim. I am saying his leaving the Lakewood of RAK was more of a break then his disaffection with CHABAD.
As for mycroft, his music is accepted because when you come down to it, their are beautiful, soul-stirring, and relatively simple compositions. And that will draw anybody. Also, the passage of time helps.
Interesting dialectic – one might have thought tzniut in its broad form (for men as well) would minimize mystique (if it means an air or attitude of mystery and reverence developing around something or someone )
The argument that everyone must dress grey or drab to remove any hint of sexuality is one that has not grabbed the heart of the masses at any time in the past 200 years (and probably earlier, but who knows). Nor shall it in any generation where women wish to feel attractive.
I saw no mystique here. I did not see anything particular sexual. I saw eclectic fashion taste, crafted by modern sentiment under halachic guidelines. Forgive me but all I saw were women who made the effort to look good. Is that what we prohibit now?
The “Hot Chanis” have been a subject of caricature for years but this article was not that. And even were it that, the alternative is not that we all live in New Square-type segregated communities. I prefer a debate about the limits of women’s dress – or even better, forfeiting that discussion when it is self-evident halachic guidelines are being observed – to which side of the street women should walk on, to the much smaller subset who would tolerate such a lifestyle. The two are linked.
Joel Rich: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/education/23single.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=single%20sex%20schools&st=cse
Single-sex education is ineffective, misguided and may actually increase gender stereotyping, a paper to be published Friday asserts
Thank you, Joel. I added the link. It just proves again the problem of justifying our religious decisions with science. When the science changes and we don’t alter our practices, we look like fools and/or hypocrites.
R’ Gil,
Baruch shekivanta
KT
R’HAGTBG,
IMHO there is room between “mystique” and everyone dressing like a clone.
KT
It just proves again the problem of justifying our religious decisions with science. When the science changes and we don’t alter our practices, we look like fools and/or hypocrites.
What science? Members of the American Council for CoEducational Schooling whose “mission is to work with educators, families, and communities to promote and improve coeducation in schools from preschool through higher education” (http://lives.clas.asu.edu/acces/mission.html) make an argument using the scientific literature available and that proves the point? I grant that some members of the ACCS are prestigious leaders of their field but others see the literature as conflicted or equivocal. And that same leader of their field is also an expert trial witness, meaning they have a certain amount of experience in how to best massage a specific view/need. I also note that the ACCS website avoids discussing religious reasons for separate sex education.
I am not a big fan of separate sex education but this article doesn’t discuss the matter and it sounds like the survey in Science doesn’t really either. I see no conflict of “justifying our religion” here since it doesn’t speak to the point.
RAFAEL:
“Also, the passage of time helps.”
i.e., people today don’t realize they are his tunes? (just guessing)
R’Abba,
Yes, just like some old European tunes are now kashered
KT
emma – “so why aren’t frum women interested in the same things as frum men? probably has to do with education, mostly”
good question. my wife never really learned talmud in the schools she attended (after day school, cental hs, and some classes at ti at stern) so she is not really interested. but jewish academics or scholarship are not her thing. so not sure if its solely due to the lack of education.
reading literary novels mostly. we have many common interests and encourage each other to explore the others interest but we are different.
don’t understand the concept of frum clothing stores or why men’s opinions matter or would comment in this area other then sociological observations. beyond me.
your welcome for the gift – its was tongue in check but true (to the amount of time spent not to spending time – but thats due to looking up stuff and relearning and reading).
R’Abba,
Yes, just like some old European tunes are now kashered
KT
No, no, no, that’s not what I meant. Everybody can identify a Carlebach tune. Its not “kashering” his niggunim, which need no kashering. I hope you were being facetious.
I mean that for those who might have opposed his music, because of what he did, the passage of time since his death dulls memories and people either forget the opposition (which I never understood) or his music is seperated from the what he did, or was alleged to have done.
I don’t understand Hirhurim on September 23, 2011 at 10:38 am. Gil — please spell out what you mean (preferably using RYBS and Maimonides to make it crisp).
“. It just proves again the problem of justifying our religious decisions with science. When the science changes and we don’t alter our practices, we look like fools and/or hypocrites.”
agreed
EMMA:
“so why aren’t frum women interested in the same things as frum men? probably has to do with education, mostly”
and marketing, also. go into eichler’s and see the brain fluff that fills up the women’s shelves. same for shiurim advertised for women.
RAFAEL:
“Everybody can identify a Carlebach tune . . . I hope you were being facetious.”
i can’t identify a carlebach tune, aside from a few
IH: Meaning, when supporters of single-sex schools advocated for themselves in the 90s and 00s using studies showing that it is better than coeducation, they set themselves up for being disproved by contrary studies. Whether this article disproves them or not (as a commenter above suggests), doing so is IMHO unwise.
The bit I still don’t follow is “justifying our religious decisions … alter our practices”. You seemed to be linking single-sex schools with halacha…
Yes those who advocate for single-sex ed generally follow the poskim (like R. Moshe Feinstein) who pasken it is required by halakhah.
” Truth be told, I was amazed how easy it is to receive endorsement letters from rabbis. It is apparent that one relies on the other, without taking personal responsibility, and with the fall of the foundation the entire house falls. I do not know what was explained to the rabbis that ’signed’”
Although quote is from linked piece on “kosher switch”-IMHO it is a major problem in relying on any signed proclamation -kol koreh etc.
Abba wrote:
“and marketing, also. go into eichler’s and see the brain fluff that fills up the women’s shelves. same for shiurim advertised for women”
Who says that the “fluff” is limited only to women? There is a huge difference in seforim and even English Judaica and Halachic works that are rooted in “it”, as opposed to “about it.”
“Yes those who advocate for single-sex ed generally follow the poskim (like R. Moshe Feinstein) who pasken it is required by halakhah.”
Obviously,the Rav dissented yet many mo day schools separate their classes – usually 5th grade.
ruvie: See the article by R. Areyh Lebowitz on coeducation in RJJ Journal LV discussed here: https://www.torahmusings.com/2008/04/new-periodical-rjj-journal-no-lv/
and the letters in response in issue LVI discussed here: https://www.torahmusings.com/2008/09/new-periodical-rjj-journal-no-lvi/
1. why is he accepted in lakewood? cause hewas more a lakewooder than a LESer. my question of is his songs sung in LES still stands. (only RMF wrote to ban him. then again, RMF was the one who decided fifth grade is the cutoff.)
i dont think its his personal life thats at issue in accepting his music. otherwise, we can find much not good about many chazzanim / other ppl we look up to. and i dont necessarily mean details of his unmentioned personal life, either.
2. ” “Everybody can identify a Carlebach tune . . . I hope you were being facetious.”
i can’t identify a carlebach tune, aside from a few”
i recall r gil’s comment on “erev shel shoshanim” love song kedusha tune. note upcomning “ein kitzva le’shnotecha” definitely old (eastern) eeuropean drinking song.
i’ll agree — i can much easier identify the band / singer on any rock song as ooposed to (what is called) “jewish music”. prob cause the lyrics are original, vs i can (almost) always identify the lyrics of any “jewish song” (if its not drowned out by lousy singing / instrument playing) and prob dont care who sings it. but in chazzanut, i would (now, in my later years) like to know. (though in chazzanut, its prob variation of rosenblatt or carlevach.)
r’ gil – ” See the article by R. Areyh Lebowitz on coeducation in RJJ Journal LV discussed here: https://www.torahmusings.com/2008/04/new-periodical-rjj-journal-no-lv/
and the letters in response in issue LVI discussed here: https://www.torahmusings.com/2008/09/new-periodical-rjj-journal-no-lvi/”
the links do not work – there is no article just the listing of articles of that issue. the question is given RYBS position at Maimonides – it seem s it was l’hatchilah and bideved.
” it seem s it was l’hatchilah and bideved.”
Both???
joseph kaplan …typo – not bideved – was rushing because of shabbat.
That’s what I thought; just wanted to be sure. FWIW, I agree with you.
joseph kaplan – seth farber does an excellent review of the different opinions of what the rav and others berfore him held in An American Orthodox Dreamer p.68 -81.
the letter in Community Covenant and Commitment (selected letters…) the rav’s letter to rabbi rosenfeld- p.83 – indicates girls should not be separated for hebrew courses in regards to the curriculum in a coed school. it seems its an educational issue and no issue in halakha for him.
yet i am sure of the revisionists out there will try to kasher this will still insist otherwise.
ruvie, I knew R. Rosenfeld well; he was a close friend of the family. I actually have (from his son) a xerox of the Rav’s letter. The school R. Rosenfeld was asking about was HILI, which I attended. Two things: First, after getting the letter, the school completely ignored what he wrote and starting in 6th grade separated boys and girls for limudei kodesh and had different curricula (boys, gemarah; girls, mishna). Second, I now have a copy of the letter R, Rosenfeld sent him (from Schnayer Leiman whose father was principal at that time). Interesting; R. Rosenfeld’s letter is in Hebrew; the Rav’s in English.
“was asking about was HILI, which I attended. Two things: First, after getting the letter, the school completely ignored what he wrote and starting in 6th grade separated boys and girls for limudei kodesh and had different curricula (boys, gemarah; girls, mishna). ”
HILI was more chareidi than the Rav.
“ruvie on September 24, 2011 at 9:39 pm
joseph kaplan – seth farber does an excellent review of the different opinions of what the rav and others berfore him held in An American Orthodox Dreamer p.68 -81.
the letter in Community Covenant and Commitment (selected letters…) the rav’s letter to rabbi rosenfeld- p.83 – indicates girls should not be separated for hebrew courses in regards to the curriculum in a coed school. it seems its an educational issue and no issue in halakha for him.
yet i am sure of the revisionists out there will try to kasher this will still insist otherwise”
Agreed and don’t forget Rav Yosef Blaus recent post about teaching identical gemarrah to 12th grade boys and girls from 65-57 and his discussions with the Rav about it-recent blog posts
whrere is this poat from R. Blau?
“Moshe Shoshan on September 25, 2011 at 3:33 am
whrere is this poat from R. Blau?”
I wish I could recall where-it was on a discussion about the Rav and teaching gemarrah. It was dealing with the question of did the Rav intend to restrict what gemarrahs should be taught women. If I recall correctly he stated what he taught at Maimonides in 65-67 and what the Ravs opening shiur at Sterns program for talmud was about.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/magazine/the-ethicist-flight-or-fight.html
Issues worth discussing
“ruvie on September 24, 2011 at 9:39 pm
joseph kaplan – seth farber does an excellent review of the different opinions of what the rav and others berfore him held in An American Orthodox Dreamer p.68 -81.
the letter in Community Covenant and Commitment (selected letters…) the rav’s letter to rabbi rosenfeld- p.83 – indicates girls should not be separated for hebrew courses in regards to the curriculum in a coed school. it seems its an educational issue and no issue in halakha for him.
yet i am sure of the revisionists out there will try to kasher this will still insist otherwise”
In this case the revisionists are not the LWMO.
http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/inquirer/130511973.html
Hope the writer is wrong but sadly his analysis seems cogent.
“tries on a sequined dress … She didn’t buy it because it wasn’t modest enough.”
But lets oneself be pictured in such a dress where more people are going to see in the dress than would in a lifetime of wearing it.
“Political sermonizing is a mistake for many reasons”
Agreed-as is clergy entering the political thicket including endorsing candidates for election.
Note the conspicuous inclusion of females in the latest Maccabeats video, in a departure from their previous offerings. If this in response to the critique they received for not doing so in the past?
“The world’s last bastion against female suffrage bowed to the forces of change when Saudi Arabia granted its female population the right to vote for the first time.
The historic decision came after King Abdullah, the Saudi ruler, conceded that a study of Muslim history had shown that women were capable of rational thinking and decision making.
“Muslim women in our Islamic history have demonstrated positions that expressed correct opinions and advice,” he told advisers.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/8788054/Saudi-Arabia-bows-to-pressure-to-reform-and-grants-women-the-vote.html
Re JPS-
Even recently many libraries would automatically buy books published by the JPS.
IH on September 25, 2011 at 2:08 pm
““The world’s last bastion against female suffrage bowed to the forces of change when Saudi Arabia granted its female population the right to vote for the first time.
The historic decision came after King Abdullah, the Saudi ruler, conceded that a study of Muslim history had shown that women were capable of rational thinking and decision making”
For Islam what is the surprise-its founder’s first wife was a very successful businesswoman. Haven’t there been many female professionals including physiciains in many Isalmic countries.
“Literature is more important than its authors’ feelings —”
Is that concept always true-does one always state the truth even if will hurt someones feelings?
Does one say the truth to an ugly Kallah that she is ugly?
“is given RYBS position at Maimonides – it seem s it was l’hatchilah and bideved”
tend to agree-but if bdieved it would take almost nothing for the Rav to accept it-including belief in better education-note Maimonides had in general 2 mixed classes per grade-they could have easily made 1 boys and 1 girls class.
“The world’s last bastion against female suffrage bowed to the forces of change when Saudi Arabia granted its female population the right to vote for the first time.”
Of course they have not granted their women the right to drive-I assume to own cars- after all what was the founder of Islams first wife business?
“Agreed and don’t forget Rav Yosef Blaus recent post about teaching identical gemarrah to 12th grade boys and girls from 65-57 and his discussions with the Rav about it-recent blog posts
Moshe Shoshan on September 25, 2011 at 3:33 am
whrere is this poat from R. Blau?”
Does anyone remember R Blaus post?
“– seth farber does an excellent review of the different opinions of what the rav and others berfore him held in An American Orthodox Dreamer p.68 -81”
A very good book for its discussion of many issues-its a very balanced book.