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Groups educating haredi women on ‘Mehadrin’ bus lines
Killing rattles Jewish community’s trust
Rabbis: Resume parking lot protests
“Backpacking”: A Potential Solution to the Tuition Crisis
Shed No Tears for the Death of JDUB
The Voice: Mel Blanc
SALT Friday
Thousands Mourn Boy Killed in Brooklyn
The Bible and the Good Life
Game On
R. Ovadia Yosef backs placing girls in haredi schools
Haredi radio to play women’s voices?
Families settle mezuzah dispute with Chicago condo
As men fade from Jewish communal life, men’s clubs push for revival
Dr. Erica Brown: The Three Week Challenge
In NY-9, Orthodox Jewish Vote Critical To Victory
Jewish groups plan strategy to counter ban on ritual slaughter
SALT Thursday
Interview with R. Nosson Kamenetsky (Hebrew)
New Leader of Modern Orthodoxy’s Main Rabbinic Group Confronts an Organization Divided Within
Ministry: Principals won’t assign girls’ schools
Women banned from economic conference
Too cool for shul
Same-sex marriage again an issue for religious charities
Is the era of national surveys of American Jews at an end?
In Praise of Out-of-Town
SALT Wednesday
Shabbat boundary rock with Hebrew etching discovered
Archaeologists Excavate Biblical Giant Goliath’s Hometown
Louis Jacobs – The Reluctant Renegade
Top Jewish academics quit union in anti-Semitism row
Fire Hits Manhattan’s Kehilath Jeshurun Synagogue
Majorcan Descendants of Spanish Jews Who Converted Are Recognized as Jews
Attribution and Misattribution: On Computational Linguistics, Heresy and Journalism
Manischewitz Goes Sephardic
SALT Tuesday
Yavneh, Pioneer Group On Campus, Recalled
3 Reasons There Are So Many Jews In Comedy
Drop-outs can repair the rifts
Imaginary Vampires, Imagined Jews
Camp Agudah & Ohel: Advice to campers’ parents regarding abuse
Inwood Yeshiva Students Travel to Florida to be Part of Shuttle Launch
Mir-Jerusalem Faces $15 Million Deficit
New Jewish group wants to restore polygamy
With flurry of new local studies, Jewish communities seeing trends and making changes
New Australian law to make Muslims lift veils
Voucher law meets the legal requirements
My God Beats Your God: The Saga Of Yehuda Bob
Legends And Fantasies In Jewish Life
The Private Eye Wears a Skullcap and Tzitzit
British Chief Rabbi Sacks: Knee-jerk hasbara efforts miss the target, harm Israel
About R. David Bigman
Undocumented Jews Suffer in Society’s Shadows
SALT Monday
Last week’s news & links
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About Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the Publisher and Editor-in-Chief of TorahMusings.com, a leading website on Orthodox Jewish scholarly subjects, and the Book Editor of the Orthodox Union’s Jewish Action magazine. He writes a popular column on issues of Jewish law and thought featured in newspapers and magazines, including The Jewish Link, The Jewish Echo and The Vues. In the past, he has served as the President of the small Jewish publisher Yashar Books and as the Managing Editor of OU Press. Rabbi Student serves on the Executive Committee of the Rabbinical Council of America. He also serves on the Editorial Boards of Jewish Action magazine, the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society and the Achieve Journal of Behavioral Health, Religion & Community, as well as the Board of OU Press. He has published five English books, the most recent titled Search Engine volume 2: Finding Meaning in Jewish Texts -- Jewish Leadership, and served as the American editor for Morasha Kehillat Yaakov: Essays in Honour of Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks.

122 comments

  1. from the article about R. David Bigman:

    “As a member, he continued to work in the orchards and with the cows.”

    i remember being in shiur once in ein tzurim when r. bigman, dressed in kibbutz blues and work boots, walked into the classroom looking for the keys to his tractor.

    article does not mention his years as rosh yeshivah in the original ein tzurim branch (a”h) of yeshivah hakibbutz hadati

  2. From the article on the chassidishe sleuth, “Financial crime is on the rise in Orthodox neighborhoods, fueled, in Mr. Levin’s view, by the recession, high birth rates and a lack of higher education that keeps young people from getting high-paying jobs.” What would the charedi/chssidish rabbinical response be to this?

  3. a lot of wierd things in the article on the sleuth.
    and why would he recommend to a wife to overlook her husband’s infidelity?

  4. Joseph Kaplan-fascinating article-and I am not going to supply full names!

  5. Question: Yavneh was a Mizrachi term (specifically for the school network in interwar poland). Was Yavneh originally formed or inspired by Mizrachi?

  6. Steve, Thanks and I’m sure you them them all!

  7. “Was Yavneh originally formed or inspired by Mizrachi?”

    I don’t think so.

  8. Great article on Rav Bigman.

  9. Yavneh inspired by Mizrachi?? Why not the Yavneh of Rabbe Yochanan b’ Zakai, i.e. the idea of Jewish renewal? If someone is really interested, they can ask R’ Rivkah Teitz Blau who was one of the founders. I was involved with the organization in the early 60s and don’t recall that Zionism was an important issue. Even the Jewish studies programs in Israel that some of us attempted to develop were aimed at fostering Jewish literacy among American students rather than their aliyah.

  10. Y. Aharon,

    Calm down. Yavneh was a common name not only to Mizrachi schools but also as an organization for Jewish university students in Warsaw. You can read more about this in Dr. Asaf Kaniel’s יומרה ומעש which recently came out under the Bar-Ilan imprint.

    Mizrachi invested a lot of effort in Jewish education that wasn’t necesarilly tied to aliya, Poland included. It was a fair assumption that they would be involved or at least serve as inspiration.

    (Indeed, apparently they were much more focused on Jewish literacy and assimilation combat than aliya per se there…)

  11. Rabbi Sacks in his covenant and conversation of PParshas Balak had an “epiphany” of Israel’s “problems” in 2001.He further stated that Israel has a “self fulfilling prophecy that we are alone in this world.
    I disagree that if only we spoke about our rightness the nations of the world would accept us.And if he had this epiphany in 2001-
    what has he actively done to present our rightness to the world.

  12. Amos Oz and David Grossman? Is R’ Sacks serious? Does he live in a bubble? Neither option is very attractive.

    It’s funny that the supposedly universalist Forward thinks that it should try to play to the sympathies of particularist Jews by saying “See, it happens to Jews too!” It sometimes seems like so much liberal argumentation is “talking down” to the masses, which makes one wonder about their real thoughts. It doesn’t work on me, fortunately.

  13. “Mizrachi invested a lot of effort in Jewish education that wasn’t necesarilly tied to aliya,”

    See eg Mizrachi trying to spread day schools in US-an example from WW11 is found in Seth Farbers book about Miamonidies.

  14. Two surprising passages in the article about Dr. Louis Jacobs. (Can I call him Rabbi Jacobs?)

    ” the anthropomorphized God of the Orthodox ”

    Did Jacobs actually think that the Orthodox have an anthropomorphized God? Or is this simply the error of the writer of the article?

    “normative Judaism was the product of rabbis’ astutely adjusting Jewish law to the ages”

    I don’t see what the problem with this particular statement would be.

    I don’t see what would be scandalous about saying this.

  15. Re: Top Jewish academics quit union in anti-Semitism row

    For those not familiar with it, the EU Monitoring Centre’s working definition of anti-Semitism, can be found at:
    http://fra.europa.eu/fraWebsite/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

    It includes: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.” And “Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.”

  16. Side note to the Jacobs Affair:

    Has the London Beit Din always been a hotbed of kono’im?

  17. Surprising that the author doesn’t mention the doctoral dissertation on Jacobs’ early life. Maybe worth its own post.

    I think R. Immanuel Jakobowits was the Av Beis Din in his day.

  18. >I think R. Immanuel Jakobowits was the Av Beis Din in his day.

    So was R. Hertz. The Chief Rabbi is always the Av Beis Din ( http://www.theus.org.uk/the_united_synagogue/the_london_beth_din/about_us/ ), but as you probably gathered, it’s mostly a ceremonial title.

  19. “In 1934, Chief Rabbi Joseph H. Hertz persuaded him [R. Yehezkel Abramsky] to become the senior dayan of the London Beth Din, a post he held until he retired to Jerusalem in 1951. The appointment of an East European chareidi rabbi to the London Beth Din was a departure for the United Synagogue, and started a tradition which continues to the present day”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yechezkel_Abramsky (first stop was the entry for London Beth Din)

  20. “Senior dayan” != “av beis din.” I, mean, it does in the real world, but in the titles that are used in London it does not. For example, the true acting av beis din today, Rabbi Ehrentreu, is styled the “Rosh beth din,” while R. Sacks is the “av beth din.”

  21. S. — Indeed, as can be seen on the Wikipedia page for the Beth Din to which I referred. I was offering a partial response to aiwac’s question.

  22. S. – Rav Ehrentreu is no longer the acting Rosh Beth Din. To quote from the United Synagogue website:
    n 1984, Dayan Chanoch HaCohen Ehrentreu was appointed the Rosh Beth Din, he was formerly Rosh Beth Din of Manchester, and previously Rosh Kollel Sunderland. Dayan Ehrentreu retired from the Beth Din in January 2007. Dayan Menachem Gelley (son of R. Zacharia Gelley of Washington Heights) became the Senior Dayan in January 2007.

    aiwac – I suppose it depends on one’s perspective. I would categorise the dayanim as on the pragmatic side of charedi (at least in their professional lives) – they allowed the Chief Rabbi to participate in the Royal Wedding in a church, they certify chalav stam products, they are ignoring (as far as I am aware) the recent brouhaha over fish worms, they are proponents of metropolitan eruvin and they are opposed to ‘brain death’. Make of that what you will.

  23. J. – thanks. I realized that after I posted.

  24. “Women who arrived last week at the “Management Forum” organized by ultra-Orthodox newspaper Hamodia say they were not allowed to participate in the event, which was intended exclusively for men.”

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4094000,00.html

  25. Some very useful statistics on Jewish divorces in Israel can be found in http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4093754,00.html

  26. “But there has been little acknowledgement of the impact this has had on Orthodoxy as a whole – even though, according to some informal estimates, there are as many Orthodox people dropping out as ba’alei teshuvah dropping in”
    That should be obvious to the mythical 2 year old in grade 6.
    Take the number of Orthodox Jews in the US in 1940 -multiply that figure by expected reproductive rate, add that amount o the immigration of Orthodox Jews to the US post 1940 multiplying that amount by the expected reproductive rate since then. Add baaalei tshuva to the sume of the first two and multiply by their reproductive rate-one would have a much greater amount of Orthodox Jews than we have now.

  27. “In a two-paragraph opinion — typical of the private rabbinical court that deals with matters of conversions, marriage conflicts and financial disputes — Rabbi Karelitz issued a statement that said because of the intermarriage patterns of the chuetas, “all those who are related to the former generations are Jews.””

    I find this ruling incredible-that one who is not born Jewish or of Jewish parents, grandparents etc isJewish!!

  28. Mycroft — see the JPost article http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=228936 which explains:

    ““Since it has become clear that it is accepted among them [the Chuetas] that throughout the generations most of them married among themselves, then all those who are related to the former generations are Jews, from our brethren the children of Israel, the nation of God,” Karlewitz wrote.”

    “Karelitz’s decision refers to the Chuetas as a collective, and for anyone wanting to return in full to the Jewish community it will be necessary for a rabbinical court to speak with the individual. According to Freund, many of the Chuetas have documentation attesting to their family lines, often going back 500 years.”

  29. “Too Cool for Shul” is fascinating (don’t miss the pix).

  30. re the cool shul – not my cup of tea, but if a gucci shul gets people to come, and the rabbi wears a skin-tight shirt, what does it matter to me. If that brings people to daven, all the better. At the same time, is there a mechitzah in the shul? It didn’t seem like it from the picture, but I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that it wasn’t a davening, but some other event. Anyone have information about it?

  31. Does the shul have a mechitzah?

  32. Mechitza was my first question. A little googling indicates he talks about the mechitza and says that it will be trendy and cool looking, but there. The picture is not of davening but of after davening, also teh stairs indicate it might be some knd of balcony. Finally, from the article it is very unclear how much actual communal davening there is and how much is saying individual tefillos.

    In LA, Aish Hatorah recently opened a space next to their main shul called Morrie’s Lounge that tries to recreate a hipster lounge/bar feeling where they hold classes and events for young professional. AFAIK they do not have davening in the room, but it is a similar idea.

    The concept of cocktail party Judaism is interesting to say the least, I am wondering what mainstream Aish and Chabad (as much as either of those orgs are mainstream) thinks about this.

  33. from that rca article:

    “In an illustration of the pressures the RCA faces from the right, the ultra-Orthodox group Agudath Israel of America issued a public statement commending the RCA for its stand.”

    i appreciate the need for the rca to keep the peace within its ranks between right and left. but why should the rca care about pressures from agudah?

    as an aside, the disucssions on this blog (naturally) focus on the wide range of MO, whether there will be a schism, etc.
    but it isn’t like the RW world is monolithic and it too has a wide range. presumably agudah also must deal with this problem?

  34. Interesting interview- is it historicaly true that most survivors came from chassidic areas?
    Does blaming things on human nature and askanim reduce culpability?
    KT

  35. JOEL RICH:

    “Interesting interview- is it historicaly true that most survivors came from chassidic areas?”

    i think so. remember that hungarian jewry fared better (relatviely speaking) than other communities for a few years
    (btw, this doesn’t mean that most survivors were themselves “chasidim”)

  36. Hungarian Jews fared better because the Hungarian government, as a Nazi ally, was not invaded until late in the war. (Something similar happened in Italy. Jews didn’t do badly in Nazi allies, like Japan, Spain, etc.)

  37. While it is true that Jews were not systematically murdered in Hungary until 1944, that last horrible year was catastrophic. By the time the Nazis were defeated some 70% – 75% of Hungarian Jews were dead (most in Auschwitz).

    Famously, The Satmar Rebbe and his court were among the 1,684 survivors on the (Zionist) Kasztner Train who were saved.

  38. “Jews didn’t do badly in Nazi allies, like Japan, Spain, etc”

    Yeah, that’s one of the strange ironies of the war. The best example of this were the Jews of Bulgaria (though not Bulgarian conquered territories), none of whom were deported.

  39. “Famously, The Satmar Rebbe and his court were among the 1,684 survivors on the (Zionist) Kasztner Train who were saved.”

    …and he would then proceed to show hakarat hatov by claiming Zionism was responsible for the whole thing.

  40. Perhaps this is what he meant:

    Country Population % Perished Perished Survivors
    HUNGARY 800,000 74% 596,000 204,000
    LITHUANIA 168,000 85% 143,000 25,000

    (from http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm)

  41. “Jews didn’t do badly in Nazi allies, like Japan, Spain, etc”

    was vichy france considered an ally or a puppet? because unlike germany’s other allies, in certain ways vichy france was even worse for the jews than nazi germany itself. (see the eye opening work of marrus and paxton.)

    reg. spain: i wouldn’t count spain among the axis powers and in any case how many jews lived there at the time?

  42. Abba,

    Vichy France or occupied France (because that’s not the same thing)?

  43. MiMedinat HaYam

    and his court — he had no court. that was only in america. in hungary, he was just another rebbe (though he was influential in certain respects, such as forcibly arbitrating his successor in a previous shteller / position).

    aiwac — not only that, but we now know that kastner wasnt responsible for the train, but the sochnut in istanbul was responsible. kastner just picked who would be on the train, and there are accusations about how he picked.

    i also saw the non mechitza. must be a non prayer picture. cannot believe chabad would allow that. they are picky about that. (and about not admitting children of non jewish mothers to their kindergardens.)

    japan — all five jews of japan. (besides, the japanese, though racists, are equal opportunity racists. they hate everybody.) also, japan remembers joseph schiff, who singlehandedlv financed the russo japanese war of 1905 because the czar would not act to prevent pogroms.

    spain — officialy neutral. few jews. strict border controls.

    portugal — officially neutral. few jews. but a refuge to all anti nazis. (remember the plane from “casablanca” flew to lisbon.) and a transit point for late kindertransport and german jews to usa.

    italy — like hungary. plus the issue of the “pope’s jews” who must remain in rome so as to be converted during the second coming.

    hungary — as mentioned not till after pesach 5704 / 1944. though all hungarian jews have a yartzeit on first day shavuot, cause that was the day the nazis took over from the hungarian puppet regime, that managed to put off outright deportations to auschwitz, though many were taken to ghettos. on shavuot, all were taken to gettos, and from there to auschwitz (many on same day) nazi killing machine was by then extremely efficient / effective.

  44. Bulgaria, Nazi ally – ~ 50,000 Jews saved. Not small potatoes.

  45. MiMedinat HaYam

    vichy france was always recognized by the usa (consulates (including us consulates that refused to give jews visas, etc. varian fry was a short term exceotion), ambassadors, and everything); even during the d-day invasion and afterwards. (fdr hated degaulle, and would not concede on this. ditto england.)

    in fact, to protect the franc, the us army used “scrip” instead of francs, to avoid devaluing the franc and protect whatever version of france you want to identify with.

    they both hated the jews. even the extent was not really relevant.

  46. AIWAC:

    “Vichy France or occupied France (because that’s not the same thing)?”

    my statements were in reference specifically to vichy france (as
    distinct occuppied france)

  47. Y’know, now that I think about it, maybe I was a bit hasty there. I mean, if we ignore countries that were not directly occupied, there was also Roumania, whose track record was far from pristine, to say the least.

  48. MMY:

    “the extent was not really relevant”

    it was certainly relevant to jews living under vichy rule.
    the vichy web ensared more jews more widely than the nazis cared about or expected them to do. the germans didn’t care about jews in the north african colonies, but the vichy applied its version of the nuremberg laws there anyway. when the germans didn’t want kids included in a roundup, the vichy took them anyway. the vichy defintion of a jew was more inclusive than the germans. etc.

    the reason so many french jews survived the war had nothing to with purported french philo-semitism (which the french bragged about for many years) but because they were too far from the extermination camps and lacked the rolling stock to transport the jews.

  49. “because they were too far from the extermination camps”

    You sure about this argument? IIRC, the murder rate in Holland (also in W. Europe) was horrendous.

  50. MiMedinat HaYam

    lacked rolling stock — but they admit they sent desparately needed train cars to transport jews. (current SNCF lawsuit)

    north africa — there were concentration camps in north africa. but it was a war zone, large distances, not exactly a prefered posting for nazis, etc.

    as opposed to france, where the nazis were just interested in french women, culture, etc. a prefered posting. the french were very agreeable to nazi occupation (ask your philo semites about that) (though there was an underground, more so than the eastern front, where the soviets didnt really care)

    yes, the french wre more helpful than those nazis wanted. but was it diff for vichy vs occupied france? dont really know. but i dont think so relevant.

  51. “they allowed the Chief Rabbi to participate in the Royal Wedding in a church”

    Israeli CRs have also gone to churches for such events-that the Rav would totally assur that is irrelevant much of the chareidi world simply did not follow the Rav

  52. MiMedinat HaYam

    didnt we agree in a previous discussion (http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2009/02/entering-sanctuary-for-hatzalat-yisrael.html) that the previous CR did not enter the church, since the wedding was on shabat?

  53. R Gil-how about a link gto R Pruzansky’s article in last week’s Jewish Press re Chazal and dating?

  54. “and Rav Willig to dance with Rav Avi Weiss in one circle, hire that man or woman,””
    shouldn’t be that difficult for cousins to find some relative to dance with.

  55. ““I don’t know why it is important any longer,” Jewish studies scholar Samuel Heilman said. Heilman is a professor at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York and the author of the 2006 book “Sliding to the Right: The Contest for the Future of American Jewish Orthodoxy.” “As the rabbinate has become increasingly right-tilting, including the rabbinate coming out of Yeshiva University, which was the main pipeline for the RCA, I’m not sure what the organization now exactly represents,””

    The RCA has become much more broadly based in the last few decades-it is far from being controlled by RIETS alumni which it was for decades.
    Interesting comment on blog where Gils post is found:
    “forever young · 10 hours ago

    The significance of the RCA peaked during the late 1960s when modern orthodoxy dwarfed the combined yeshiva/hassidic community in terms of population and relative wealth. While their influence over the broader community swiftly declined during the next decades, they remained very influential within the modern community owing to the vast respect paid to Rabbi joseph Soloveitchik. After his passing in 1993, both the RCA and modern orthodoxy in general have remained adrift at sea. Rabbi Weiss and his impish acolytes on the left and the possibility of a new modern orthodox rabbinic organization tilting towards the right only eacerbates a hopeless situation for American modern orthodoxy.. .”

  56. AIWAC:

    “You sure about this argument? IIRC, the murder rate in Holland (also in W. Europe) was horrendous.”

    i’m not sure about anything. it’s not my research. its from marrus and paxton (e.g. “Vichy france and the jews”)

    keep in mind that the dutch community was much smaller. not as much effort and resources to wipe it out.

  57. “, Herring was viewed as being responsible for at least part of the organization’s rightward drift,”

    I have no particular inside knowledge of how much R Herring is responsible for the drift-but if so it would have been a surprising development-R Herring was a Rabbi and writer and head of organization before coming to the ExVP job-was not known as a chareidi.
    “in particular its 2008 agreement with Israel’s rabbinic establishment allowing the chief rabbinate to determine which American Modern Orthodox rabbis could approve acceptable conversions to Judaism. ”

    I have written my opinion before on this issue but since it is only tangential to Gils post I will not repeat my viewpoint -but is the writer claiming that it was R Herrings idea?

  58. “Now, says Hershel Billet, a past RCA president and rabbi of New York’s Young Israel of Woodmere, more conservative RCA members who oppose the admittance of those ordained by Chovevei are considering forming an alternative rabbinic organization, as well.”
    Anyone know what R Billets position is on this issue-
    BTW-I have no idea if R Billets schul is the one referred to in this article by Prof waxman
    “Secondly, approximately two years ago, an unpublished
    survey was conducted by Milton Heumann and David
    Rabinowitz in a Young Israel synagogue in the New
    York-New Jersey area.”
    but this probably could apply to many Rabbis including R Billet:

    “There is no evidence in this synagogue of a haredization
    of the community. Its rabbi graduated from Yeshiva
    University’s Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary
    (RIETS) in the 1970s and has been in his present position
    for several decades. Presumably, just as “leka ketubba delet
    bah tigra,” “there is no wedding ceremony that does not
    entail some friction,”6 there is no synagogue in which
    there is unqualified love between the rabbi and the congregants.
    There are, however, no overt indications of any
    serious issues between the rabbi and the membership.
    The rabbi is to the right of most of his congregants and
    probably goes along with some of the “modern” drift of
    the congregation with great reluctance.7 But he is firmly
    entrenched there, his congregants appear to view his role
    as very important, and their relations appear to be quite
    amicable.”

    “The environment within the RCA has become so fraught with tension that an online discussion forum it runs for members “is very, very slanted to the right-wing position, to the point where people hesitate to say their real opinion lest they be identified as deviant leftists,” said one member, who requested anonymity to avoid becoming embroiled in controversy.”

    Certainly there are blogs where one will be attacked for saying anything different than current RW position.

    Read more: http://forward.com/articles/139756/#ixzz1S2trvHgQ

  59. Concerning the “Too Cool for Shul” story:
    The story revolves around Rabbi Dovi and Esti Scheiner.
    A little known fact about them (thought it’s on the net for all to see): They were married in New York on 9-11-2001. Their story is very powerful.

  60. presumably everyone is familiar with the tragic story, yet perhaps a link to something concerning funeral

    http://www.vosizneias.com/87426/2011/07/14/borough-park-ny-in-photos-thousands-mourn-boy-killed-in-brooklyn

  61. “IH on July 12, 2011 at 12:44 pm
    “Women who arrived last week at the “Management Forum” organized by ultra-Orthodox newspaper Hamodia say they were not allowed to participate in the event, which was intended exclusively for men”

    Whats the news ?

  62. “presumably everyone is familiar with the tragic story,”
    Not necessarily-but Gil like Drudge, Huffington, Fox News, MSNBC etc delivers certain type of news.
    Recently there was a major theft involving an Orthodox institution-it made the News Google headlines-how I found out about it-later cover story in a tabloid-but not a word in the Orthodox Press.

  63. “Cohen says that while he understands that cost and controversy kept the Jewish Federations of North America from doing another national study, the absence of any national study is a great loss for the Jewish community and one that local studies — as helpful as they are — cannot fill.

    “People are worried that if you do a study there will be controversy, and there will be. But the value outweighs the controversy,” he said. “We don’t have a sense of the problems and potential. We’ve lost an instrument to help build community. That’s definitely regrettable”

    Or maybe many don’t want to know whatthe data will show.

  64. Shachar Ha'amim

    “When it comes to the Three Weeks, we must not only be mourners. We must all become educators.”

    I agree. That is why Israeli jews must educate their amercian berthren to consider whether they should really even be participating in 3 week rituals as they have the opportunity for which Jews had been deprived for nearly two millenium – that is to get on a plane and move to the land of israel which is now under Jewish sovereignty, and CHOOSE not to do so. Are these fasts and signs of mourning then really meanigful and true? or just outward displays of particpation in a meaningless ritual?

  65. Kedassia and the porkies:
    http://www.thejc.com/node/51650
    http://www.thejc.com/node/51624
    Note the irony of the non-orthodox Jewish Chronicle giving mussar to the charedi hechsher on kashrus. According to sources quoted, the centrist London Board of Shechita would never do this. Is more ‘heimish’ always more mehudar?

  66. MYCROFT:

    “Not necessarily-but Gil like Drudge, Huffington, Fox News, MSNBC etc delivers certain type of news.”

    my suggestion to link to the story wasn’t in order to open a discussion about the animal himself and the communal implications of his presence in its midst, but rather out of a sense of communal mourning. i didn’t think there was anything controversial with the link to funeral i suggested.

  67. “and Rav Willig to dance with Rav Avi Weiss in one circle, hire that man or woman,””
    shouldn’t be that difficult for cousins to find some relative to dance with.

    They both received kibbudim at my nephew’s brit a few years back- R’ Willig was the sandak; R’ Weiss gave the name. It was held at the RJC, and R’ Rosenblatt officiated.

    Before the brit started, the two cousins sat chatting in a very friendly way. As one of my cousins said, if it hadn’t been a Shabbat, he’d had loved to have taken a picture of *that*. 🙂

  68. STATEMENT FROM AGUDATH ISRAEL OF AMERICA

    Along with all of Klal Yisroel, Agudath Israel of America joins in deeply mourning the tragic petirah of Leiby Kletzky, z”l..

    The circumstances of this young boy’s death are shocking and horrifying. With broken hearts, we offer our divrei tanchumin to the members of the grieving mishpacha, and are mispallel that they have strength and fortitude.

    May the incredible dedication and achdus displayed by every segment of the tzibbur over past days during the search for Leiby, z”l, be a tremendous z’chus for Leiby’s neshoma in Gan Eden.

    We join the entire community in expressing our tremendous gratitude to the New York City Police Department, the FBI and local government officials for all their efforts; and we hope and trust that the perpetrator of this murder of an innocent boy will swiftly be brought to justice. And we extend our special hakoras hatov to to all the community organizations (in particular Shomrim, Hatzalah, Misaskim and Chaverim) and to the scores of volunteers from near and far who so quickly mobilized and pooled their tremendous energy and resources into the search for Leiby, z”l.

    HaMakom yenachem ha’mishpacha ha’nichbada
    b’soch she’ar aveilei Tzion v’Yerushalayim.
    ———————————-
    This is no about Agudah or Chareidim (and I could have to a lesser degree posted this re the fire at KJ) but it would be imho beneficial sometime in the future to have a post leading to discussion of a number of issues including:
    1. the need for our community to find meaning in such an event
    2.the need to see the positive (at least in the short run) vs. a “do tshuva” reaction
    3.how do we express our hakarat hatov to these organizations (or thre FDNY) in our ordinary lives
    4.how do we maintain achdus in normal times
    KT

  69. MiMedinat HaYam

    j 10:37am:

    done all the time here in new york.

    the warehouse for a major charedi marketer is in a municipal nyc meat market, with sides, etc all over the place. maybe not on the truck (though i have my doubts).

    cant speak for slaughterhouse.

  70. There were serious threats to schitah in North America-circa 50 years ago-who was the person who was the point man in designing pens etc and fighting for schechitah-the Rav.

  71. to have a post leading to discussion of a number of issues including:Agree with Joel

    “1. the need for our community to find meaning in such an event”

    a trsagedy happened-it is sacreligious to try and divine Gods ways-Bilaam thought he could understand God and of course as Chazal state he couldn’t even control his donkey.
    Vayidom Aharon
    Why is it that people who are not the victims of the tragedy feel an obligation to make statements.

    “2.the need to see the positive (at least in the short run)”
    there is nothing positive about tragedies.

    “vs. a “do tshuva” reaction”]
    one can examine ones one actions but never imply or state that tragedies happened to others because of x

    “4.how do we maintain achdus in normal times”
    It has never happened
    KT

  72. “I agree. That is why Israeli jews must educate their amercian berthren to consider whether they should really even be participating in 3 week rituals as they have the opportunity for which Jews had been deprived for nearly two millenium – that is to get on a plane and move to the land of israel which is now under Jewish sovereignty, and CHOOSE not to do so. Are these fasts and signs of mourning then really meanigful and true? or just outward displays of particpation in a meaningless ritual?”

    And we have a rebuilt Beit HaMikdash? Jewish sovereignty alone does not a rebuilt Jerusalem make.

    Of course, if you’ve changed the bracha in the the amidah of Boneh Yerushalayim, and the bracha in birkat hamazon of Boneh Berachamav Yerushalayim, and “UMipnei Chataeinu” in chag musaf…

  73. “That is why Israeli jews must educate their amercian berthren to consider whether they should really even be participating in 3 week rituals as they have the opportunity for which Jews had been deprived for nearly two millenium – that is to get on a plane and move to the land of israel which is now under Jewish sovereignty, and CHOOSE not to do so. ”

    I’m ONE WHO LIVES IN AMERICA-but it it has probably been an error of cosmic porportion that Jews have not returned to Israel in the past45-63 years-sadlyt we might pay for it the same way our ancestors in Ezras time did-essentially noJewish sovereignty for another 2500 years and arguably given Israels total dependence on other powers the lack of independence exists today see eg what exactly does one see on Har Habayis

  74. “Of course, if you’ve changed the bracha in the the amidah of Boneh Yerushalayim, and the bracha in birkat hamazon of Boneh Berachamav Yerushalayim, and “UMipnei Chataeinu” in chag musaf…”

    Practice has changed -ever hear anyone do kriah for seeing arei Yehudah in a charuv position-see eg Zevin in Moadim bhalacha that-now that there is a medinas Israel-vashrei shezachinu -no need to do kriyah on seeing arei Yehudah. Note makom hamikdash is a different issue.
    BTW-re ashrei shezachinu… a classic ArtScroll maneuvar-they translated Moadim bhalacha but left out the ahsrei shezachicunu.
    Classic inteleectual hobesty of the Chareidi world.

  75. Backpacking-just be ready for the regulation that will follow as well as the press of taking money from public schools (in the current economy certainly it will be close to a zero sum game)

    KT

  76. Mycroft, we’re on the same wavelength. I just raised the issue of regulation with the president of the OU in an email and will probably discuss it more w/ him when he gets back from Israel.

  77. “ever hear anyone do kriah for seeing arei Yehudah in a charuv position”

    yes, go to the intercontinental, tear, proceed to kotel, tear again.

  78. ““public transportation operators may not tell, request or order women to sit in a specific place on the bus just because they are women – or to tell them how to dress; and they are entitled to sit anywhere they wish,” thus effectively abolishing the so-called Mehadrin public buses”
    A little over half a year ago my wife and I took the Egged bus from Guelah to Kamenetz/Neve Yakov-most people were segregated women in back-my wife carrying stuff for the Neve Yacov people we were visiting satnear the driver-no one said a word.

    .” At the same time, women were permitted to board the bus from the middle door, and even punch their own tickets with a perforator tied nearby that exit point”
    On the bus going to Neve Yacov I wondered how were women paying-asked people in Neve Yacov they said women paid with punch as indicated in quote. Sat near center on way back to observe women entering and see if they punched ticket-my estimate was maybe 15% did. Not a random samle but something to ponder.

  79. “joel rich on July 15, 2011 at 8:46 am
    Backpacking-just be ready for the regulation that will follow as well as the press of taking money from public schools (in the current economy certainly it will be close to a zero sum game)

    KT

    Joseph Kaplan on July 15, 2011 at 12:04 pm
    Mycroft, we’re on the same wavelength. I just raised the issue of regulation with the president of the OU in an email and will probably discuss it more w/ him when he gets back from Israel.”

    Joseph we are on the same wavelength. I agree with Joel Rich-but realistically any politically viable program will likely have income limitations-thus the people complaining the most in general 5Ts, Bergen County etc would not benefit from any such program even if it passed constitutional muster.
    Look at income imitations for various college aid credits and programs. As far as giving money to the student for education-that would eliminate public schools as a preference-what authority not to give all students money instead of just those going to parochial schools.
    I don’t live in an Orthodox controlled school board district but read the local paper of one-a writer wrote that no Board of Ed members whose kids did not attend public schools spent the couple of hours to attend graduation. To me it showed the obvious that that school board is not interested in education of public school students-thye are interested in minimizing taxes. Just surprised that all were apparently tone deaf and wouldn’t even make the effort to make it look good and spend the couple of hours to attend the graduation.
    The Ous position is a typical one of amny organizations put out stements for issues that one can’t win andeven if did wouldcause termendous harm. Imagine the press that parents in the South Bronx are deprived of asic education becasue of subsidies goingto parents from Riverdale-not going to happen.

  80. MiMedinat HaYam

    contrast the “groups educating” with http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=229255

    2. backpacking — no diff than us govt aid (pell grants, student loans, etc) to religious schools (i guess i should add properly accredited)

    3. placing girls in religious schools and womens voices on haredi radio — both articles effectively say nothing. no change. they wont be allowed on radio, and they wont be allowed in haredi schools.

  81. “no diff than us govt aid (pell grants, student loans, etc)”

    us GOVNT AID TO STUDENTS BOTH PUBLIC AND PRIVATE-NOT LIMITED TO PRIVATE SCHOOL STUDENTS-CTS HAVE DISTINGUISHED- I BELIEVE BUT NOT SURE- COLLEGE FROM ELEMENTARY AS FAR AS AID-

  82. “Maj.-Gen. Avi Mizrahi on Saturday condemned settler violence against Palestinians, saying that actions that have come to be known as “pricetag” attacks constitute terrorism.”

    http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=229637

  83. “IH on July 16, 2011 at 9:48 pm
    “Maj.-Gen. Avi Mizrahi on Saturday condemned settler violence against Palestinians, saying that actions that have come to be known as “pricetag” attacks constitute terrorism.””

    That settler violence is anathema to Israel is not new.

  84. That Mizrahi has an, erm, issue with settlers is nothing new.

  85. That “pricetag” is unambiguously being called terrorism (by the State) is new, AFAIK.

  86. IH, the whole “pricetag” thing is new. They had no trouble calling the 1980’s Underground (or Kahanists, natch) “terrorists.” Sometimes obsessively so.

  87. Nachum — terrorism meant something different 20+ years ago. It is new news in the present context.

    It also seems to me that this aligns with my point in the previously discussed “harrassment” of Rabbis Lior & Y Yoseph, that the State has a plan of organized tactics to nip rising extremism in the bud; and that this is a lesser evil than the alternatives.

  88. Nachum,

    Perhaps you could explain why the underground weren’t terrorists?

  89. Well, it’s definitely gross…:)

  90. Shachar Ha'amim

    “I’m ONE WHO LIVES IN AMERICA-but it it has probably been an error of cosmic porportion that Jews have not returned to Israel in the past45-63 years-sadlyt we might pay for it the same way our ancestors in Ezras time did-essentially noJewish sovereignty for another 2500 years and arguably given Israels total dependence on other powers the lack of independence exists today see eg what exactly does one see on Har Habayis”

    I’m willing to grant that Tisha B’av as a fast day still has a place in the ritual. However, the 3-weeks and the other 3 jerusalem related fasts really need to be examined by anyone who is intellectually honset with themselves and the reading of the talmud that addresses these.
    On the Israeli side – we need to examine if we truly still live in a time that is ‘shmad’ – frankly I think that we don’t.
    On the chu”l orthodox side – you need to examine if you really mean what you say on those days. if you’ve chosen not to join the Jewish people in the Jewish land, than how can you realy “mourn” or express a “desire” to do so?

  91. Mycroft wrote;

    ” Imagine the press that parents in the South Bronx are deprived of asic education becasue of subsidies goingto parents from Riverdale-not going to happen”

    That’s true if you are assuming that South Bronmx and other similarly situated parents aren’t considering charter schools as an alternative to the dismallly performing NYC public schools, whos strongest supporters are the UFT and those politicians who see the same as patronage plums.

  92. On the chu”l orthodox side – you need to examine if you really mean what you say on those days. if you’ve chosen not to join the Jewish people in the Jewish land, than how can you realy “mourn” or express a “desire” to do so?

    -A) I know it’s hard to believe, but there exists a sizeable chunk of the Jewish people that resides outside the Jewish land – in fact it remains the majority. So don’t get ahead of yourself

    B) Last I checked we learn about how Rav left Israel to go to Bavel. Somehow I doubt that he didn’t mourn during the 3 weeks.

  93. Steve Brizel on July 17, 2011 at 2:26 pm
    “Mycroft wrote;

    ” Imagine the press that parents in the South Bronx are deprived of asic education becasue of subsidies goingto parents from Riverdale-not going to happen”

    That’s true if you are assuming that South Bronmx and other similarly situated parents aren’t considering charter schools as an alternative to the dismallly performing NYC public schools, whos strongest supporters are the UFT and those politicians who see the same as patronage plums”

    Irrelevant answer-my point is simply that politics will not permit a transfer of money from poor puiblic school students to comparatively wealthy parochial students.
    Both the UFT abd charter schools have often been patronage plums.

  94. “Last I checked we learn about how Rav left Israel to go to Bavel. Somehow I doubt that he didn’t mourn during the 3 weeks.”
    Query how much extra aveilus was there before shvua shechal bo.

  95. “aiwac on July 17, 2011 at 9:54 am
    Nachum,

    Perhaps you could explain why the underground weren’t terrorists?”

    Certainly the underground were terrorists as were segments of JDL-see eg killing of innocent civilains in their anti-Soviet campaign.

  96. “that the State has a plan of organized tactics to nip rising extremism in the bud; and that this is a lesser evil than the alternatives.”

    This isn’t a secret to anyone who’s been following the news here in Israel the last few weeks- there’s been this not-so-secret government department basically devoted to persecuting the right wing. It was officially shut down in the late ’90’s but continues to operate thanks to one deputy attorney general who’s taken the holy work upon himself. God save us from such people.

    “Perhaps you could explain why the underground weren’t terrorists?”

    I never said they weren’t. Not Kahanists, by the way.

    “innocent civilains in their anti-Soviet campaign.”

    Civilian, Mycroft, one at the most, after which Kahane (who was in Israel) essentially shut down the JDL. Let’s be accurate.

  97. That was me, of course.

  98. “I never said they weren’t. Not Kahanists, by the way.”

    The difference being…?

  99. ““innocent civilains in their anti-Soviet campaign.”

    Civilian, Mycroft, one at the most, after which Kahane (who was in Israel) essentially shut down the JDL. Let’s be accurate.

    “From Wikipedia on JDL

    [edit] Opposition to Soviet policiesInitially, the League was connected to a series of terrorist attacks against Soviet interests in the United States, protesting that country’s repression of Soviet Jews, who were often jailed and refused exit visas.[13][14] The JDL decided that violence was necessary to draw attention to their plight, reasoning that Moscow would respond to the strain on Soviet–United States relations by allowing more emigration to Israel.[14]

    On 29 November 1970, a bomb exploded outside the Manhattan offices of the Soviet airline, Aeroflot. An anonymous caller to the Associated Press claimed responsibility and used the JDL slogan Never again!. Another bomb attack, on January 8, 1971 outside of the Soviet cultural center in Washington, D.C., was followed by a similar phone call, including the JDL slogan. A JDL spokesperson denied JDL involvement in the bombing, but refused to condemn it.[1] In 1970, Soviet agents forged and sent threatening letters to Arab missions claiming to be from the JDL to discredit it. They also were ordered to bomb a target in the “Negro section of New York” and blame it on the JDL.[15]

    In 1971, a JDL member allegedly fired a rifle into the Soviet Union’s mission office at the United Nations. In 1972, two JDL members were arrested and charged with bomb possession and burglary in a conspiracy to blow up the Long Island residence of the Soviet Mission to the UN. The two JDL members pled guilty and were sentenced to serve three years in prison for one, and a year and a day for the other. In 1975, JDL leader Meir Kahane was accused of conspiring to kidnap a Soviet diplomat, bomb the Iraqi embassy in Washington, and ship arms abroad from Israel. A hearing was held to revoke Kahane’s probation for a 1971 firebomb-making incident. He was found guilty of violating probation and served a one year prison sentence.[1]

    In 1972, a smoke bomb was planted in the Manhattan office of music impresario Sol Hurok, who organized Soviet performers’ US tours. One of the secretaries died of smoke inhalation.[16][17] Hurok and twelve others were injured. Jerome Zeller of the JDL was indicted for the bombing.

    JDL activities were condemned by Moscow refuseniks who felt that the group’s actions were making it less likely that the Soviet Union would relax restrictions on Jewish emigration. On April 6, 1976, six prominent refuseniks — Vladimir Slepak, Alexander Lerner, Anatoly Shcharansky, and Iosif Begun — condemned the JDL’s activities as terrorist acts, stating that their “actions constitute a danger for Soviet Jews… as they might be used by the authorities as a pretext for new repressions and for instigating anti-Semitic hostilities.”[1]

    During the 1980s, past-JDL member Victor Vancier (who later founded the Jewish Task Force), and two other former JDL members were arrested in connection with six incidents; a 1984 firebombing of an automobile at a Soviet diplomatic residence, the 1985 and 1986 fire and pipe bombings of a rival JDL member’s cars, the 1986 firebombing at a hall where the Soviet State Symphony Orchestra was performing, and two 1986 detonations of tear gas grenades to protest performances by Soviet dance companies.[1] In a 1984 interview with Washington Post correspondent Carla Hall, Meir Kahane admitted that the JDL “bombed the Russian mission in New York, the Russian cultural mission here [Washington] in 1971, the Soviet trade offices.”[14][18]

    [edit] Opposition to Vatican policiesOn December 31, 1975, fifteen members of the League besieged the office of the Permanent Mission of the Holy See to the United Nations in protest for Pope Paul VI’s policy of support of Palestinian rights. The crisis was over after one hour, as the activists left the place after being ordered to do so by the local police. No arrests were made.[19]

    [edit] Solicitation of murder trialOn March 16, 1978 Irv Rubin said about the planned American Nazi Party march in Skokie, Illinois: “We are offering $500, that I have in my hand, to any member of the community… who kills, maims or seriously injures a member of the American Nazi party.” Rubin was charged with solicitation of murder but acquitted in 1981.[20]

    JDL members had often been suspected of involvement in attacks against neo-Nazis and other Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites. In 1995, when the Toronto residence of Ernst Zündel was the target of an arson attack, a group calling itself the “Jewish Armed Resistance Movement” claimed responsibility; according to the Toronto Sun, the group had ties to the Jewish Defense League and to Kahane Chai.[21] The leader of the Toronto wing of the Jewish Defense League, Meir Halevi, denied involvement in the attack, although, just five days later, Halevi was caught trying to break into the Zündel property, where he was apprehended by police.[21][22] Later the same month Zündel was the recipient of a parcel bomb that was detonated by the Toronto Police Service’s bomb squad.[23]

    [edit] Accused of murder of Alex OdehAlex Odeh was an Arab-American who was killed on October 11, 1985 in a bombing at his office in Santa Ana, California. Odeh was regional director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. Shortly before his killing, Odeh had appeared on the television show Nightline, where he engaged in a tense dialogue with a representative from the Jewish Defense League.[24]

    Irv Rubin, chairman of the JDL, immediately made several controversial public statements in reaction to the incident: “I have no tears for Mr. Odeh,” Rubin said. “He got exactly what he deserved.” He also said: “My tears were used up crying for Leon Klinghoffer.”[13] The Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee both condemned the murder.

    Four weeks after Odeh’s death, FBI spokesperson Lane Bonner stated the FBI attributed the bombing and two others to the JDL. In February 1986, the FBI classified the bombing that killed Alex Odeh as a terrorist act. Rubin denied JDL involvement: “What the FBI is doing is simple… Some character calls up a news agency or whatever and uses the phrase Never Again… and on that assumption they can go and slander a whole group. That’s tragic.”

    In 1987 Floyd Clarke, then assistant director of the FBI, wrote in an internal memo that key suspects had fled to Israel and were living in the West Bank town of Kiryat Arba. In 1988, the FBI arrested Rochelle Manning as a suspect in a mail bombing, and also charged her husband, Robert Manning, whom they considered a prime suspect in the Odeh bombing. Both were members of the JDL.”

  100. “In a 1984 interview with Washington Post correspondent Carla Hall, Meir Kahane admitted that the JDL “bombed the Russian mission in New York, the Russian cultural mission here [Washington] in 1971, the Soviet trade offices.”[14][18]”

  101. Shachar Ha'amim

    “-A) I know it’s hard to believe, but there exists a sizeable chunk of the Jewish people that resides outside the Jewish land – in fact it remains the majority. So don’t get ahead of yourself”

    that’s actually what I mourn for…really I do. I have edited my siddur to cross out all the references in tachanun to “the destroyed and defiled city” and all references to “please return us to our land”. Basically, the bottom line of my mourning on the ratzu/loa ratzu fast days is the 3 lines of “acheinu kol beis yisrael etc.” which is said after kriyat hatorah on Mondays and Thursdays

  102. “Or, here’s a novel thought: Read R’ Kahane himself.”

    I have heard Kahane himself-I have heard his vituperation against Jews who didn’t agree with him. His hatred was evident. Also Mrs Mycroft has subscribed to the Jewish Press for decades and I often read the hatred in the column that I read.

    Especially galling at times was his personal hatred against specific Jews who did not agree with him as self hating Jews etc. Equally galling was his using of people-someone I knew who sadly died before his time was stabbed by Arab terrorists and was in hospital for a couple of months was used by Kahane as a symbol in his speeches. This person who I knew decently well told me of his personal disgust for being made such a symbol-BTW I was told that in Maaras Hamachpela.

  103. Hatred of other Jews? Kol haposel, bemumo posel.

  104. Nachum,
    As a physician, I am often offended by Mycrofts posts. However, even I would never say that he has hatred. Cynicism about others is not the same as hatred.

  105. Re R M Kahane Hahem Yimkam Damo, I found his rhetoric extreme. Yet, his first book “Why Be Jewish?” IMO was an on target dissection of the American Jewish community ranging from the Charedi to the secular communities.

  106. That was his fifth book.

  107. “I know it’s hard to believe, but there exists a sizeable chunk of the Jewish people that resides outside the Jewish land – in fact it remains the majority. So don’t get ahead of yourself””

    We have the highest percentage of Jews living in Israel since before churban bayis rishon.

  108. “Cynicism about others is not the same as hatred”

    Fair enough-some have accused me of being cynical about the world for half a century others have called it being a pragmatist.
    I tend not to believe in general great men of history and really respect people when they act in a non profit maximizing aspect.

  109. “really respect people when they act in a non profit maximizing aspect.”

    In all seriousness, Mycroft, the problem I have with that attitude as expressed by you in numerous posts is that it seems to me you always seem to assume that people are doing what they are doing out of a profit motive without seriously considering that they may actually be sincere and are acting for a good and proper motivation.

  110. “and all references to “please return us to our land”.”

    Is that because currently I believe Jews everywhere are able to go to Israel if they so desire-no exit restrictions and Israel lets in Jews gladly.

  111. “Joseph Kaplan on July 18, 2011 at 7:59 pm
    “really respect people when they act in a non profit maximizing aspect.”

    In all seriousness, Mycroft, the problem I have with that attitude as expressed by you in numerous posts is that it seems to me you always seem to assume that people are doing what they are doing out of a profit motive without seriously considering that they may actually be sincere and are acting for a good and proper motivation”

    I believe the evidence is that in general people do profit maximize-a whole field is dependent on that assumption-the Chicago school of economics has succesfully shown how in general that represents how people behave. When I look at behavior of people I tend to see how they act rather than the self justifications of how they act-to the extent for example that I see a clergyman, physician etc acting in a non self profit maximizing behavior I have respect for them-I have observed cases in both-to the extent that profit maximizing behavior drives their actions over what the field claims to do I don’t have respect. Sadly, my observations have tended to be that profit maximizing behavior drives most behavior.

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