Audio Roundup 2019:49

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by Joel Rich

On eating fish and meat together

I’m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We’re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o”c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish.

טור אורח חיים הלכות בציעת הפת, סעודה, וברכת המזון סימן קעג
וא”א הרא”ש ז”ל היה רגיל ליטול ידיו בין בשר לדגים

In y”d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together.

טור יורה דעה הלכות מאכלי עובדי כוכבים סימן קטז
וצריך ליזהר שלא לאכול בשר ודג ביחד שקשה לצרעת

The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef

בית יוסף אורח חיים סימן קעג
ב ומ”ש רבינו ואדוני אבי ז”ל היה רגיל ליטול ידיו בין בשר לדגים דחמירא סכנתא מאיסורא. הכל בו (סי’ כג טז.) כתב שגם הר”ם נ”ע היה נוהג כן מזה הטעם ולא פירש מהיכן למד הר”ם כן ונראה שלמדו כן מדגרסינן בפרק כיצד צולין (פסחים עו:) ההיא ביניתא דאיטויא בהדי בישרא אסרה רבא מפרזקיא למיכלה בכותחא מר בר רב אשי אמר אפילו במילחא נמי אסורה משום דקשה לריחא ולדבר אחר. ופירש רש”י דאיטויא בהדי בשרא. בתנור אחד: לדבר אחר. צרעת:

The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to הר”ם-who is that? (the Rambam doesn’t mention it)

Tradition magazine published a symposium -“Rupture and Reconstruction Reconsidered” (25 years after its original release). Dr. Soloveitchik’s article has caused a lot of people to think over the years :-). What follows is my quick summary of the responses. (Me-kach mkublani mbeit imat avi – “the tide goes in, the tide goes out”)

N. Barash. Women feel more dissonance than ever. Orthodoxy has solid core values which should be mimetically transmitted and change should come through text interpretation. (me-it’s all about the demographics)

G. Berger. A number of changes have taken place over the years. There have been halachic implications of the greater availability of text. Be aware that you could support a logic of leniency as easily as you could of stringency (since all opinions are acceptable, picking any one should be fine). Hashkafic implications include a greater lack of instinctual practice, it’s all micro-halacha 24/7. Women’s education is driven by a deep desire to interact with the dvar hashem (Me-Interesting see N. Barash – where she said this was not her original drive)

A. Eis, L.Novick. There is now a mimetic internet community with its own traditions (especially for women). This can also lead to quick dissemination of podcast leniencies (me – there’s a general issue of who we consult to clarify hakachic issues)

A.Ferziger. The Chofetz Chaim realized that the home was weakening and text was substituted as a transmission methodology. We must realize that text can be lenient (as when re-examined as we’re seeing with women’s issues.)

E.Fischer. The trends Dr. Soloveitchik identified are really part of larger non-monotonic trends. You see similar peaks and valleys after each loss and the recovery. See the introduction to the Rambam as an example. (me-reading introductions is a great idea in general)

E.Goldberg. There’s been a disturbing trend of one word answers from poskim which doesn’t allow for deep learning. Stringencies may result but the internet also allows a path to the extreme left as all opinions seem equally authentic. The center must hold!(me-troop levels seem dangerously low)

M.Harris. In the United Kingdom the chareidi community is more Zionistic. There is an increase in confidence in the community. Asceticism has disappeared but he’s not sold on the change in feeling the immanence of divine presence. (me-focus on actions and see if this statement is still true. See H. Zelcer below)

L.Korbin. There have been dramatic changes in internet access which allows everybody access to sources and has also changed how we communicate

D.Korobkin. Our host society has become more godless and this has resulted in social orthodoxy. We need to teach more faith. (me- but how? What teacher/pupil ratio will work and will we financially support it?)

E. Muskin. The disappearance of the boundary between halacha and chumrah has caused OTD in our young people. We need to work on increasing emotional commitment. (me-see comment above)

Y. Pfeffer. There hasn’t been a real rupture. The whole Chazon Ish/ Kollel thing was an anti-Zionist temporary isolation strategy that’s all changing now as part of a dynamic progression. (me- a rose by any other name will smell as sweet)

S. Ridner. Women’s mesorah transmission is both mimetic and text based and in the end there may not be much change. (me- or maybe yes)

C. Saiman. The US has reached a plateau and started a “new” mimetic tradition.(me- amen. As in “instant classic”) Really now Israel defines our Judaism.(me-amen and I’m coming home next week IY”H[as I write this])

R.Schwartz. There was a much thicker culture prewar but now there’s a disconnect between the Roshei Yeshivas’ world and ours. We are splitting the right from social orthodoxy. (me-anecdotally seems all too accurate)

C. Strauchler. A text based yoke can lead to the touch of the divine. (me-I hope that’s true)

H. Zelcer. Practical chareidim were not recognized by Dr. Soloveitchik. They work and are OK with Zionism. Many people use stringencies for their own business purposes. There’s often a lack of yirat shamayim amongst more educated, chassidim do a much better job at this. He describes his own personal rupture and reconstruction. (me- Ger 🙂 vtoshav?)

Please direct any informal comments to [email protected].

About Joel Rich

Joel Rich is a frequent wannabee cyberspace lecturer on various Torah topics. A Yerushalmi formerly temporarily living in West Orange, NJ, his former employer and the Social Security administration support his Torah listening habits. He is a recovering consulting actuary.

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