Guest post by R. Aharon Ziegler (bio)
For most of us the sixty-fourth birthday usually indicates the beginning of our retirement years. Our bodies no longer function with the vigor and efficiency that they did a few decades ago. But in terms of historic longevity of nations and states, sixty-four years is not a long time at all. So even though those of us who were then alive and remember the day of the founding of the State of Israel are now certainly older and weaker than were then, the state itself is in its youth and exuberant stage of development.
There are now over six million Jews living in our homeland and to me it is most refreshing to hear that figure of six million Jews used in a much happier context than its usual association with the tragedy of the Holocaust. The achievements of the state over its little more than six decades of existence are truly astounding. The Yeshivot, for both boys and girls are overflowing, the shuls are packed with men and women attending morning Torah lectures.
Traffic jams are taken in stride and tolerated during rush hours and even in between. Restaurants are fully occupied at all hours of the day and the beauty of colorful, massive display of fruits and vegetables at Machaneh Yehudah are a breathtaking sight for tourists taking pictures to bring back to their respective countries. The Israel Defense Forces are B”H strong and the Guardian of Israel is watching over us.
The United Nation is aware that the Unites States and Israel are the only two world powers that have the capability of striking down Iran’s nuclear facilities. Imagine that, we are placed together, side by side, and recognized as an equal partner with the awesome power of the United States. Kol HaKavod to Medinat Yisrael.
On Yom HaAtzmaut, Israel prizes are distributed to people accomplished in the arts, sciences, public welfare, and communal leadership. However, the true Israel Prize is to be given to the ones who experience Israel in one’s heart and spirit all the days of the year.
In Gematriya the number 64 spells out יבוא הגואל, Let the Redeemer come. Kein Yehi Ratzon.
When we personalize the story, the miracle we celebrate comes to life.
Over the last few years I’ve gotten to know a 1st cousin of my father who is a spry 87 years old (he retired a couple of years ago) that I did not know previously.
He was the only survivor of his family, saved on a kindertransport. In 1947 he made (illegal) aliyah with a Garin that founded a kibbutz in the North. He still lives there.
I tell this story because I discovered him as a result of a letter my father had saved among his papers. The letter was written in November 1966 and included the following: “There is no need to tell what a kibbutz is all about. The Syrians are our neighbours and they are full of tricks these days. We have chosen this type of life knowing full well what it implies and have no regrets in our choice. The countryside around here was terribly desolate when we first came to xxx or really to the spot that became xxx. Today it is a really lovely place with a magnificent view of the Hermon area and the River Jordan and the now reclaimed Hula Valley.”
When I see him and the kibbutz he built, it brings to life the nevuah in Yishayahu:
כה אמר יהוה, מנעי קולך מבכי, ועינייך, מדמעה: כי יש שכר לפעולתך נאום-יהוה, ושבו מארץ אויב. ויש-תקווה לאחריתך, נאום-יהוה; ושבו בנים, לגבולם.
Typo: Yirmiahu, of course.
Rav Elisha Vishlitzky has declared that we are already past the stage of Atchalta deGeulah and are in “metziata deGeulah”, in the midst of Redemption. Some of the reasons he gives are the advanced stage of kibbutz galuyot where over a million Jews from the FSU and other Eastern European countries along with over 100,000 Ethiopian Jews have been absorbed into Israel. A trickle of olim continues to arrive from North America thanks to Nefesh ba Nefesh. The fact is that virtually any and every Jew who WANTS to can make aliya from anywhere in the world. The basic economy is booming and in fact Israel has weathered the economic crises of the last decade far better than most European countries and even America. The Torah world both Chareidi and Leumi is booming with tens of thousands of talmidim in hundreds of Yeshivot nand Kollelim. The impact of the Religious sector on the general life of the country is far greater than it was 10 or 20 years ago.
Of course we have a long way to go till the Geulah Shleima. We still face existential threats from those “bechal dor va dor omdim aleinu lechaloteinu, and because of the sectorial nature of Israeli society we have yet to achieve the inner cohesion of “mi keamcha yisrael goi ECHAD ba’aretz”. But S’D we are getting there. I for one say Hallel on Yom Atzmaut with kavvana atzuma in thanks to the KBH for bringing us this far. May we see the completion of the Geulah shleima bimheira beyameinu.
The United Nation is aware that the Unites States and Israel are the only two world powers that have the capability of striking down Iran’s nuclear facilities”
IT IS CERTAINLY NOT GENERALLY ACCEPTED THAT ISRAEL HAS THE CAPABILITY OF DESTROYING IRAN’S NUCLEAR FACILITIES.
Very nice. But can we get something halachic/hashkafik? This is more like a bi’sheva article.
>Restaurants are fully occupied at all hours of the day
Yes they are. I actually saw a funny video once where a woman asks if anyone actually works in the country 🙂
“I actually saw a funny video once where a woman asks if anyone actually works in the country :-)”
I remember seeing somewhere that they asked PM BG about instituting a 5 day workweek. He said yes but start slowly- first one day, then two days, then three…
“A trickle of olim continues to arrive from North America thanks to Nefesh ba Nefesh.”
number of olim from US
2010-2,071 2009- 2,129, 2000-2008 13,271, 1990-1999 15,480, 1980-1989 18,904, 1970-1979 20,963, 1960-1969 18,671
I don’t see how the number of olim from the US have increased since the NBN was established.
“The fact is that virtually any and every Jew who WANTS to can make aliya from anywhere in the world.”
Agreed
“The basic economy is booming and in fact Israel has weathered the economic crises of the last decade far better than most European countries and even America. ”
Its GDP per capita is still below most of the west
Qatar 102,943 2011
2 Luxembourg 80,119 2011
3 Singapore 59,711 2011
4 Norway 53,471 2011
5 Brunei 49,384 2011
— Hong Kong 49,137 2011
6 United States 48,387 2011
7 United Arab Emirates 48,158 2011
8 Switzerland 43,370 2011
9 Netherlands 42,183 2011
10 Austria 41,822 2011
11 Kuwait 41,691 2011
12 Canada 40,541 2011
13 Sweden 40,394 2011
14 Australia 40,234 2011
15 Ireland 39,639 2011
16 Iceland 38,061 2011
17 Germany 37,897 2011
18 Belgium 37,737 2011
19 Taiwan 37,720 2011
20 Denmark 37,152 2011
21 Finland 36,236 2011
22 United Kingdom 36,090 2011
23 France 35,156 2011
24 Japan 34,740 2011
25 Korea, South 31,714 2011
— European Union 31,607 2011
26 Israel 30,975 2011
27 Bahamas, The 30,959 2011
28 Spain 30,626 2011
29 Italy 30,464 2011
30 Cyprus 29,074 2011
31 Slovenia 28,642 2011
Mycroft — the relevant GDP statistic is annual growth rate, not the absolute numbers. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate_%28latest_year%29
Israel is in far better shape than Western Europe or the US, or even the World average.
“IH on April 28, 2012 at 11:22 pm
Mycroft — the relevant GDP statistic is annual growth rate, not the absolute numbers. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_GDP_growth_rate_%28latest_year%29
Israel is in far better shape than Western Europe or the US, or even the World average”
Really? so you would rather be someone whose assets doubled last year from $5 to $10 than someone whose assets declined from $1,000,000 to $990,000.
Israelis may be in better shapethan Americans they have a medical system that people live longer with but economically they are much worse off.
MYCROFT:
“I don’t see how the number of olim from the US have increased since the NBN was established.”
the question isn’t only whether the number of olim has increased (apparently they haven’t, or at least not much), but also whether they are more successful than before. i.e., how many of these olim are still in the country 5, 10, 15 years later. the idea of NbN isn’t just to incease aliyah awareness, but also to make the process of settlement and acclimation smoother.
(personally think NbN has great self-serving PR but doesn’t really do *that* much. any increased success in american aliyah is due primarily to the much improved local economy, opportunities for virtual and physical commuting, western-style standard of living, etc.)
Mycroft — I think you’re picking a silly debate here. The quote you selected from R. Ziegler’s post — ““The basic economy is booming and in fact Israel has weathered the economic crises of the last decade far better than most European countries and even America. ” — is true.
If you want to make comparisons in the impact of a bad economy on individuals in a society, then GDP is not the applicable metric. Look at unemployment, for example.
Unfortunately, btw, where Israel is failing — like in the US — is in the increased inequality of wealth among its citizens.
“Mycroft — I think you’re picking a silly debate here. The quote you selected from R. Ziegler’s post — ““The basic economy is booming and in fact Israel has weathered the economic crises of the last decade far better than most European countries and even America. ” — is true”
It is true but misleading.
“Unfortunately, btw, where Israel is failing — like in the US — is in the increased inequality of wealth among its citizens”
Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Israelis may be in better shapethan Americans they have a medical system that people live longer with but economically they are much worse off.”
I don’t know how you can say that. Look at Israel compared to the other western countries that have limited natural resources and you’ll see that we’re doing quite well thank you.
What do you mean economically worse off? because more people in the USA drive lexus SUV’s while Israelis have to “settle” for a Hyundai SUV?? or that more people in the USA have two cars per family than in Israel?
and let’s be honset – if you did an economic comparison for the population in the USA for whom Israel is most relevant as an alternative – i.e. Jews – and took into account GDP adjusted for costs of living (and you can throw private school tuitions or all sorts into that formula – on both sides of the ocean..) you would find that Israel is frankly doing much better than you’re giving credit for.
Is that what all those Israelis were protesting last summer?
They were protesting inequality: both in standard economic terms, but also in affordable housing thta has been exacerbated by the public-private-partnership that favors affirmative action housing development for Charedim.
Good coverage. See the series of articles in the Winter Jewish Review of Books, or http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/24/rising-israel/?pagination=false
IH:
absentee ownership is apparently a problem also
“personally think NbN has great self-serving PR but doesn’t really do *that* much. any increased success in american aliyah is due primarily to the much improved local economy, opportunities for virtual and physical commuting, western-style standard of living, etc.)”
Agreed.Obviously, Americans aren’t going to change a decision to be an oleh or not based on a free cab trip from the airport which BTW is aprt of ridiculous privileges to olim wo any income/asset requirement.
Interesting article about Israel in 2015
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/imagining-april-29-2015-the-end-of-the-romance-with-romney-1.426925
“They were protesting inequality… that favors affirmative action housing development for Charedim.”
Thanks for bringing the Charedim into this thread for a little bashing. How predictable. I can feel the ahava for the amcha shining through…
I have more money in my bank account at the end of each month living in Israel, than I did living in America.
I don’t really care what other metric people use. More money in the bank at the end of the month, to me, means I’m richer.
I received the following comment via e-mail concerning this thread:
“”Your table, on per capita GDP, where Israel comes below most of the West, probably puts Israel in too favorable a light. Israel has a high cost of living, to a good extent because the recent governments (not including the current government) have coddled the tycoons and their oligopolies. For example, your table shows Israel doing better than Italy, but on a purchasing power basis Israel is worse than Italy. What puts Israel in even worse light is that, by Western standards, it has terribly high income inequality.
As far as the guest post by R. Ziegler, the paragraph of his, quoted below, is just patently silly. “The United Nation is aware that the Unites States and Israel are the only two world powers that have the capability of striking down Iran’s nuclear facilities. Imagine that, we are placed together, side by side, and recognized as an equal partner with the awesome power of the United States. Kol HaKavod to Medinat Yisrael. “”
Shaul — it has little to do with Chardim qua religion. It’s akin to neo-conservative thinking about African-Americans, which is about class and societal responsibilities rather than race.
Abba — yes, as I understand. And particularly in Jerusalem which has a subtantial ratio of housing stock that is not occupied much of the year.
It should be noted the Tal Law replacement debate is also about societal responsibilities rather than religion. From this weekend’s reports, it appears that will be the issue that forces new elections and test balloons have been floated to see how the issue will be framed. Viz: is it only Jewish citizens (i.e. Charedim) or non-Jewish citizens as well (i.e. Israeli Arabs) who will be required to do national service in lieu of army service).
“‘We can make a real estimate concerning where we’re going and when, after the vote on the Tal Law. Enlistment for everyone; we’re all going to vote on it. We’re not going to let anyone go – Haredim, minorities, everyone. I want the ultra-Orthodox parties to respect that,’ Lieberman said.”
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/lieberman-vote-on-haredi-idf-service-will-decide-date-of-israel-s-elections-1.426953
“Hirhurim on April 29, 2012 at 9:04 am
Is that what all those Israelis were protesting last summer?”
that has nothing to do with whether or not the people in Israel are economically worse off. Aside from the political background to the protests, people were protesting price gouging and inequality in land distribution which led to a big runup in RE prices.
But let me quote the bit in the article you linked to entitled “The Greatest Challenge Facing The Orthodox Jewish Community” which is found under your daily ideas:
“Rabbi Steven Weil, Executive Vice President of the Orthodox Union, recently spoke compellingly on this issue to members of the Harvard Jewish community at Harvard Hillel. He presented the stark reality that a couple earning a salary of $200,000 living in a New Jersey suburb in a modest home could expect to be asking for financial aid and living paycheck by paycheck once they have more than two children in the day school system. The day schools are not significantly overcharging when they put tuition at $24-25,000 a year per child. it costs a significant sum of money to maintain a school building, pay for teacher and administrative compensation, school supplies and the myriad of other expenses educational institutions must shoulder. In addition, day schools work very hard to maintain a policy of never turning any child away because of financial constraints so the additional monetary burden of tuition discounts and waivers adds to the difficulties the schools face.”
Now, I don’t have handy access to the current statistics, but I would venture to say that “a couple earning a salary of $200,000 living in a New Jersey suburb” would probably counted amongst the top percentile of earners in the region – certainly amongst the top vigintile (i.e. top 5%). If they live in ” a modest home” then ther purchasing power after discounting the “modest” housing costs, will certainly bring them into the top percentile.
All I can say is that in Israel a couple with income amomgst the top 5% of wage earners, and amongst the top 1% of purchasing power do NOT “expect to be asking for financial aid and living paycheck by paycheck once they have more than two children in the school system” – even if they are sending their kids to the most expensive semi-private Yeshiva High School with all afger school chugim thrown in on top of that.
No way – it simply doesn’t happen.
““Rabbi Steven Weil, Executive Vice President of the Orthodox Union, recently spoke compellingly on this issue to members of the Harvard Jewish community at Harvard Hillel. He presented the stark reality that a couple earning a salary of $200,000 living in a New Jersey suburb in a modest home could expect to be asking for financial aid and living paycheck by paycheck once they have more than two children in the day school system.”
Which if true the sytem can’t exist-what percentage of American households earn 200k? Orthodoxy should not belimited to the few wealthy. I don’t know
Rabbi Weil but a general problem is that our leading administartors etc tend to hang around their boards who tend to be in incomes not in the ballpark of most Americans and they having been succesful tended if Rabbis to have had pulpits where the vast majority of their members are way above the median socieconomic status
“The day schools are not significantly overcharging when they put tuition at $24-25,000 a year per child.”
Assuming only 20 students per class-usually more-rougly 500K tuition
” it costs a significant sum of money to maintain a school building, pay for teacher”
teachers don’t average more than 200K. Thus 300K for everything else-administrative comp, school supplies etc don’t come close to 300K per class.
“and administrative compensation, school supplies and the myriad of other expenses educational institutions must shoulder.In addition, day schools work very hard to maintain a policy of never turning any child away because of financial constraints so the additional monetary burden of tuition discounts and waivers adds to the difficulties the schools face.”
Some may but many don’t. Schools have scholarship dinners etc to raise money for those.
“it has little to do with Chardim qua religion. It’s akin to neo-conservative thinking about African-Americans, which is about class and societal responsibilities rather than race.”
If you defend us the way you defend OWS, we’ll be okay with it.
Huh. You got the wrong guy (on OWS).
Shaul — Perhaps the analogy to African-Americans is on target in another way as well: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/07/opinion/blow-from-oj-to-trayvon.html
If you want to make comparisons in the impact of a bad economy on individuals in a society, then GDP is not the applicable metric. Look at unemployment, for example.
Israel currently has much lower unemployment than the US…
Though unemployment is also a questionable statistic, it measures the degree of momentary economic downturn as much as the long term overall health (in scientific terms: AC voltage rather than DC, weather rather than climate).
Its GDP per capita is still below most of the west
It’s just below the EU average, according to the posted statistics. If you exclude the 30% of Israel (Arabs+Haredim) where one sex is prevented from working due to social norms (and where those who do work frequently do not report it to tax authorities), the GDP per capita is much higher than the EU average.
Unfortunately, btw, where Israel is failing — like in the US — is in the increased inequality of wealth among its citizens.
Once again, most of this problem is due to Arabs+Haredim. Exclude them from the analysis and Israel’s numbers look quite good.
They were protesting inequality: both in standard economic terms, but also in affordable housing thta has been exacerbated by the public-private-partnership that favors affirmative action housing development for Charedim.
“They” were protesting many different things, some justifiable, others not, and different people were protesting different things. The high housing prices are unavoidable in a country as small as Israel. The high consumer good prices due to oligopolies in many market sectors are much more avoidable.
Abba — yes, as I understand. And particularly in Jerusalem which has a subtantial ratio of housing stock that is not occupied much of the year.
Jerusalem housing prices are unavoidably worse than the rest of the country since there is no room to expand (West Bank on three sides, and a deep canyon which is a nature reserve on the fourth side). The fraction of housing units owned by foreigners and unoccupied is actually very low (granted, it is concentrated in central and visible neighborhoods).
Shlomo — see the Eyal Press NYBooks article (link above) re: several of your points. It’s pretty balanced and clear eyed.
The point about Jerusalem is true to a point, although the expansion of muncipal boundaries has been very dramatic (this is very visible to any Israeli over 50 when driving in via 443). But, there is also the side-effects of American, Anglo and Fremch Jews who have bought many apartments that they use for a couple of months a year.
Lastly, the point about Israeli Arabs not reporting income to the tax authorities, disproportionately from the Israeli Jewish population appears to be an urban myth. If you have any evidence, I’d be interested in the URLs.
“Unfortunately, btw, where Israel is failing — like in the US — is in the increased inequality of wealth among its citizens.
Once again, most of this problem is due to Arabs+Haredim. Exclude them from the analysis and Israel’s numbers look quite good.”
This is an important point but just excluding them from the analysis is also not the answer, since they are still part of the population!
“Shaul — Perhaps the analogy to African-Americans is on target in another way as well:”
I don’t get the connection.
IH-If you yearn for the days when everything in Israel was a product of an ossified no growth economy that epitomized socialism at its worst,and failed to allows its best trained citizens to start up businesses based on the training that they received while serving their country, and which led to escalating taxes, especially as practiced, then the NY Review of Books article was “pretty balanced and clear eyed.” The article ignored the fact that the Charedi world in Israel is slowly recognizing the necessity of work, and instead focused on the sectors leading the protests, just as in OWS, who claimed they were the most deserving of entitlements-students with unmarketable degrees. The article also was devoid of any comments by any Charedi representative as to their beliefs as tothe unique role of Talmud Torah on a 24/7 basis in the Land of Israel.
Contrary to Mycroft’s claims, NbN, which seems to be as much a bete noir in his POV as Chinuch and the medical profession, works wonders for American olim who want to make aliyah , but desire American style efficiency innavigating Israeli red tape. Anyone who knows anyone who has flown on a NbN flight of olim can testify that their Israeli citizenship and other documents were prepared for them well in advance of the flight.
The article also was devoid of any comments by any Charedi representative as to their beliefs as tothe unique role of Talmud Torah on a 24/7 basis in the Land of Israel.
And does this feature in Senor and Singer’s Start-Up Nation or in the reporting you read in right of center periodicals such as Commentary?
“Contrary to Mycroft’s claims, NbN, which seems to be as much a bete noir in his POV as Chinuch and the medical profession, works wonders for American olim who want to make aliyah , but desire American style efficiency innavigating Israeli red tape”
Red tape would not prevent aliyah-I know someone who made aliyah after living in Israel. It took them a few hours in Misrad hapnim thats all. NBN advertises they will do the paper work-I know someone very well who was in Israel before NBN-made internal aliyah by himself NBN phoned him up and asked for teudat zehut number asked NBN why did they want the number this way they could get credit for aliyah and receive funding. Person refused.
NBN is good I’ve dealt with them-frankly one gets more objective advice IMO from AACI.
IH asked:
“And does this feature in Senor and Singer’s Start-Up Nation or in the reporting you read in right of center periodicals such as Commentary”
Yes and no-Start Up Nation is devoted solely to the rise of capitalism and the demise of the once top down overly regulated government subsidized and state socialist economy in Israel. One has to look elsewhere for any representation of the POV of the Charedim.
IH-See the letters in the most recent issue of Commengtary re the Charedi world and its problems. I tend to doubt that the oh-so predicably NYRB, which published the works of Tony Judt, and other far LW critics of Israel, would ever publish anything favorable about the Torah observant world, whether MO, Charedi or RZ. Commentary has a long and distinguished history of analyzing trends in Jewish and American communal affairs, as well as having a sane voice on many political issues affecting American politics ranging from the Cold War to the future directions of American foreign policy.
Mycroft wrote:
“Red tape would not prevent aliyah-I know someone who made aliyah after living in Israel. It took them a few hours in Misrad hapnim thats all. NBN advertises they will do the paper work-I know someone very well who was in Israel before NBN-made internal aliyah by himself NBN phoned him up and asked for teudat zehut number asked NBN why did they want the number this way they could get credit for aliyah and receive funding. Person refused.
NBN is good I’ve dealt with them-frankly one gets more objective advice IMO from AACI”
You misunderstood my point. NbN helps Americans and their families circumvent Israeli red tape with American style efficiency, so that they can spend their time in a more productive manner than answering tiresome questions and complying with Israeli red tape in its many shapes, which can discourage many people and certainly lead many to wonder why Israel can’t function more like the USA. The advantage of having all your documemtation ready to go when you step onto the NbN flight is that you don’t have to take a “a few hours in Misrad hapnim”, when you could be doing something far more productive with your time.
NbN also helps American religious Jewish olim find jobs and neighborhoods so that they will have a Klitah Tovah.AFAIK, AACI is a nice social network for Americans and Canadians, while providing a network for their next of kin to wonder why their friends and children gave up life in the Goldene Galus in North America.
For those interested in the mission of NbN, especially vis a vis North Americans and their role in Aliyah, see http://www.nbn.org.il/about/leadership/536-government-partnerships.html
For those who yearn for the mythical days of the kibbutz movement in the same way that many Charedim view life in Eastern Europe, see the annexed link for the economic toll on Israeli economic life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz_crisis. One can argue that the kibbutzim received far more benefits from the then welfare satte ethos in Isarel than the Charedim do today.
See also, the annexed linked article by Joshua Muravchik and PM Begin ZL’s comment re “millionaires with swimming pools.”
http://www.pbs.org/heavenonearth/resources/commentary_socialisms_last_stand_03-01-02.txt
Steve — Balint’s history of Commentary makes for fascinating reading. Their committment to Torah is a matter of debate. Letters to the Editor are not reporting.
On the NYRB, they certainly have an editorial frame, but with few exceptions each article is based on a book review. Recently, for example Ret. Supreme Court Justice Stevens (no left-winger he) wrote two essays; there was a review of the Hajj show at the British Museum that pulled no punches about the non-PC aspects of Islam; and there was a fascinating, if dense, article on Moral Philosophy that ends with:
And I could give many other examples. So, perhaps, you should not criticize based on stereotypes without due diligence.
Red tape? Here’s an example: I applied for an Israeli passport all on my lonesome. (I’m sure NbN would have helped me, but I didn’t ask.) Filled out a form on their website, dropped it off at Misrad HaPnim, no waiting on line. This was the day before Erev Rosh Hashana (two years ago.) I assume offices were closed the next day. They certainly were for two days after that. Somehow the passport was in my mailbox the day after Rosh Hashana. Try getting that service in the US.
It’s not perfect- far from it. But it’s not what it used to be.
“IH on May 1, 2012 at 11:30 am
Steve — Balint’s history of Commentary makes for fascinating reading. Their committment to Torah is a matter of debate”
About a quarter of a century ago John Podhoretz was a 5 time champion on Jeopardy-in those days 5 times was the limit. When I saw the show I had never heard of John Podhoretz but paid attention because of his name. What do I remember-two categories Russia and Bible-Podhoretz got all questions on Russia correct knew very few about the Bible. Neocons are conservative there need not be a correlation to belief and knowledge of Bible.
“You misunderstood my point. NbN helps Americans and their families circumvent Israeli red tape with American style efficiency, so that they can spend their time in a more productive manner than answering tiresome questions and complying with Israeli red tape in its many shapes, which can discourage many people and certainly lead many to wonder why Israel can’t function more like the USA.”
Thank God for Israeli patients their medical system is not like the US. I don’t believe redtape discourages people from aliyah. They may be discouraged if Israel doesn’t recognize their yahadus or yahadus of members of their families but red tape give me break.
Your link on kibbutz in crisis has the following warning “article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2010)”
IH-I have read reviews of Balint’s history of Commentary. I can’t wait for a former apparatchik at NYRB to write a similar work about NYRB without being accused of being a traitor to, and having deserted a great liberal institution. FWIW, one can read aricles by R D Berger, C R and D J Werthheimer and many other champions of traditional, but not necesasarily Orthodox Jewish values as well as excellent views on various American domestic and foreign policy issues.
Mycroft-B’H-the American medical system neither is akin to the systems in the UK, France, Canada or Israel. If that was the case, I would not have been able to select the best surgeon possible to perform my second surgery, and probably would be one of many waiting on line for a surgeon to be available to perform the same.
One has to be a died in the wool believer in red tape and unnecessary bureaucratic hurdles that Israel created, including requiring highly trained American MDs to retrain upon moving to Israel in many specialites-which is a classic example of red tape being used to maintain a craft system so as not to allow competition from possibly better trained competitors. To say that red tape does not thwart red tape flies in the face of numerous horror stories related in print and person about Isareli bureaucrats who unfortunately all often lack the ability to realize that the citizen and would be oleh are the people that pay their salaries, and comcomitantly, had an equally unfortunate tendency to view American olim with the view of why would anyone leave the US to settle in Israel. Perhaps, Isareli bureaucrats could do well and take a course in how to satisfy their clients-the Israeli public-in the same manner that any well trained sales force , whether at Barnes & Noble or Eichlers’ express interest and welcome to a potential customer-as opposed to doing the customer a favor by processing the transaction and viewing a would be customer and browser as a potential criminal.
Mycroft- Sine you find the Wikipedia article insufficiently documented for your standards, feel free to read the linked Muravchik article.
IH wrote:
“. Letters to the Editor are not reporting”
True-however, they show a vitality of debate.
“On the NYRB, they certainly have an editorial frame, but with few exceptions each article is based on a book review”
So what-the articles use the “book review” as an excursus by the writer into a very liberal, if not hard left POV on a wide range of issues.
Mycroft-the Wikipedia article in question contained three external links, including this one.http://www.israeleconomy.org/nbn/nbn309.htm
Mycroft-see also http://www.kibbutz.org.il/eng/articles/021027_changing.htm
Mycroft-see also http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/after-100-years-the-kibbutz-movement-has-completely-changed-1.260940 I guess Glasnost even reached the denizens of Israeli socialism.
Unfortunately, some view the Kibbutz system with the same thinking as such “lost causes” as Communism and the Confederacy. For an example of why clear and objective thinking, as opposed to revisionism is imperative on such issues, see the annexed link.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304050304577375861475185678.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h
Mycroft wrote:
“Thank God for Israeli patients their medical system is not like the US”
WADR, you have a documented POV here against what you perceive as the undue income that the medical profession in the US earns for their work after years of an expensive education and arduous training that even surpasses what top flight attorneys and financial professionals endure. There is nothing wrong with a system that rewards those that who are the best in their profession for their efforts, as opposed to insisting that a well trained professional live on the aame scale as a civil servant or shoemaker.
Steve — don’t get too gushy about the demise of the old socialist Israeli ethos; with American capitalism has also come American consumerism that is even more anti-thetical to Jewish values than the chalutz socialism.
IH-one can argue that traditional “Jewish values” neither are reflected by American consumerism nor by Chalutz socialism, which certainly its far LW varieties such as HaShomer HaTzair. Am I correct in asserting that on at least one HaShomer HaTzair kibbutz, the death of Stalin, Yimach Shmo VZicro was actually mourned?
For those interested in how at least one HaHomer HaTzair kibbutz “mourned” the demise of Stalin Yimach Shmo VZicro, see the annexed link. http://www.israelimages.com/see_image_details.php?description=death-of-stalin-commemorated-in-kibbutz-gaash-in-1953&idi=6159
And Kibbutz ha’Dati, Steve?
—–
FWIW I am not a fan of the kibbutz movement or socialism; but, nor do I buy the glory of Israeli capitalism, which is closer to FSU capitalism to (Protestant) American capitalism in its results.
IH-When we recentlty visited Israel for our grandson’s Bris Milah, we rode to Yerushalayim in a sherut with high tech professionals who were attending conferences with some of the most prominent companies in the high tech sphere.
I think that the historical record will show that PM Netanyahu and Stanley Fisher’s economic reforms moved Israel away from a statist, overly regulated, and stagnant economy that supported a kibbutz system that was losing money towards a capitalist system that rewarded entrepeneurs who translated their educational and military training into “thinking outside the box” with tremendous success. I would strongly hesitate to classify either the economic or political realities in Israel as closer to that extant in the FSU than the US, especially in high tech, where one can assert that Silicon Valley and its Israeli counterparts have played no small role in the technological revolution. The FSU has a long way to go before it even approaches either Israel or Silicon Valley in realizing that entrepeneurship in the technological world, as opposed to a top down highly regulated economy that stifles innovation in areas where innovation is a condition precedent for success.
Once upon a time Kibbutz HaDati was a player in the Israeli economic scene with a voice similar to LW MO in the US and a non messianist approach to RZ, and kibutzim, which I doubt which were as austerely and rigorously socialist as HaShomer HaTzair. Unless you consider Meimad an attempt to resuscitate the same,one can argue that RZsince 1967 has become quite messianist in nature , has shifted to the right religiously, and has focused unduly on the Land of Israel, with until recently, not an awful attention to the People of Israel.
IH wrote:
“FWIW I am not a fan of the kibbutz movement or socialism; but, nor do I buy the glory of Israeli capitalism, which is closer to FSU capitalism to (Protestant) American capitalism in its results.”
At the risk of being accused of changing the subject, Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East-a virtue which neither the FSU nor China can ascribe to, despite their preference for one party former KGBniks running the country or Communist totalitarianism while seeking American investments. Israel is far closer to the Amercican model of free markets for free minds either the FSU or China-both of which ruthlessly supress dissenting views-even to the extent of demanding apologies from the US for purportedly meddling in its internal affairs with respect to human rights violations.
“One has to be a died in the wool believer in red tape and unnecessary bureaucratic hurdles that Israel created, including requiring highly trained American MDs to retrain upon moving to Israel in many specialites-which is a classic example of red tape being used to maintain a craft system so as not to allow competition from possibly better trained competitors. To say that red tape does not thwart red tape flies in the face of numerous horror stories related in print and person about Isareli bureaucrats who unfortunately all often lack the ability to realize that the citizen and would be oleh are the people that pay their salaries, and comcomitantly, had an equally unfortunate tendency to view American olim with the view of why would anyone leave the US to settle in Israel”
Steve data see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Israel life expectancy number 5 at 82 years, US life expectancy 38 at 78.2 years.
Medical spending per capita http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html US $6096, Israel $1972.
Steve — While many of my friends and family are in that high-tcch space, but fewer than 10 percent of Israelis work in the high-tech sector.
According to none other than Yuval Steinetz MK Likud and Finance Minister the Israeli economy is controlled by 30 families. And this was in 2010, a year before the protests last summer.
Kibbutz ha’Dati illustrates that your rhetoric regarding cha;utz socialism and Jewish values is just political posturing.
Tell me, which Rabbinic leaders in Israel are outspoken cheerleaders of the Israel capitalism you claim are superior from a Jewish values perspective?
IH wrote:
“Tell me, which Rabbinic leaders in Israel are outspoken cheerleaders of the Israel capitalism you claim are superior from a Jewish values perspective?”
You missed my point-I stated that neither socialism nor capitalism per se were intrinsically Jewish values.
IH wrote:
“Steve — While many of my friends and family are in that high-tcch space, but fewer than 10 percent of Israelis work in the high-tech sector.
According to none other than Yuval Steinetz MK Likud and Finance Minister the Israeli economy is controlled by 30 families. And this was in 2010, a year before the protests last summer.”
If your educational background is in a field that is not conducive to high tech, whose responsibility is it to provide for you and your next of kin?I would rathe have my economy controlled by those who have earned the right to do so by the dint of their efforts, as opposed to the Israeli equivalent of the Harvard U faculty telephone directory.
Re the NYRB article authored by Eyal Press, and others that are accessible at the NYRB website, the following should be of interest to the interested reader:
“Eyal Press is a 2011 Schwartz Fellow at the New America Foundation and a contributing writer at The Nation. His book Beautiful Souls: Saying No, Breaking Ranks, and Heeding the Voice of Conscience in Dark Times will be published next February. (November 2011”
The Nation is hardly a publication that is friendly to Israel, especially with writers who have challenged the fact that the Six Day War was a preemptive strike launched out of self defense.
For those interested in Eyal Press’s prior writings at The Nation, see the annexed and other links. http://www.thenation.com/article/153939/tony-judt-1948%E2%80%932010
For those interested in the vast differences between The New Republic and The Nation, see the following link.http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/14/arts/a-feud-between-the-nation-and-the-new-republic.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Anyone publishes an articlehttp://www.thenation.com/blog/six-day-war-40-years-later that views Tom Segev’s journalistically uninformed and biased view of the Six Day War as more informed than to Ambassador Oren’s documented history ( Six Days of War”)cannot be seriously considered as a student of the facts that led to the same.
Well, if anyone who has written for The Nation is pasul, that would also include Barbara Tuchman and Pat Buchanan.
Steve Brizel on May 2, 2012 at 12:43 pm
Mycroft wrote:
““Thank God for Israeli patients their medical system is not like the US”
WADR, you have a documented POV here against what you perceive as the undue income that the medical profession in the US earns for their work after years of an expensive education and arduous training that even surpasses what top flight attorneys and financial professionals endure”
I stated nothing about integrity of physicians-I stated thank God for Israeli patients-the American system is better for physicians, insurance companies, the Israeli system is better for everyone else-
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
Israel life expectancy number 5 at 82 years, US life expectancy 38 at 78.2 years.
Medical spending per capita http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html US $6096, Israel $1972.
More from article that IH cited about Lieberman:
“Mr. Lieberman refers to himself as an ”observant Jew,” not Orthodox. It is an intentional distinction that his staff laments has been overlooked in all the coverage devoted to the first Jewish politician to run for vice president.
”He refers to himself as observant as opposed to Orthodox because he doesn’t follow the strict Orthodox code and doesn’t want to offend the Orthodox, and his wife feels the same way,” said a Lieberman press officer who spoke on the condition of anonymity.”
Mycroft wrote in part:
“I stated nothing about integrity of physicians-I stated thank God for Israeli patients-the American system is better for physicians, insurance companies, the Israeli system is better for everyone else”
A system that would require would be olim who have trained in the best American medical schools and hospitals to retrain so that they can enter the medical profession in Israel is akin to a medieveal craft that isn prejudiced against outsiders. Any system of medical care that makes a patient wait on a proverbial line when he or she needs surgery and can’t choose the surgeon of their choice is not a system that operates in the best interest of the patients, but rather is a bureacracy that is rationing care as if it considered the needs of patients as if they were standing on line in a bakery or supermarket. Viewing “the American system is better for physicians, insurance companies, the Israeli system is better for everyone else” is a not so subtle comment about the incomes of physicians in the US.
IH wrote:
“Well, if anyone who has written for The Nation is pasul, that would also include Barbara Tuchman and Pat Buchanan”
Barbara Tuchman was a great historian. Buchanan’s views were viewed as beyond the pale of proper conservative dicourse years ago by WF Buckley.
Mycroft wrote:
“”He refers to himself as observant as opposed to Orthodox because he doesn’t follow the strict Orthodox code and doesn’t want to offend the Orthodox, and his wife feels the same way”
I prefer to rely on Senator Lieberman’s affiliations and actions, and wonderfully articulate and inspiring views towards Shabbos Kodesh in a book published by OU Press. I have no idea what was meant by “the strict Orthodox code”, which is a statement so broad that one can drive a proverbial truck through the same. Such a statement can be twisted like a pretzel. Does the same mean the Charedi or MO “strict Orthodox code”? I remain steadfast in my contention that I would eat in his home if invited, and would offer the senator an aliyah or similar kibbud if he davened in my shul and I was the Gabbai.
Objective confirmation of earlier commentary in today’s news:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4220785,00.html
“Israel experienced a rise in the level of inequality in the past decade and a half, placing it second behind Mexico in the number of poor families in the OECD.
According to the Gini index, Israel ranked fifth among OECD countries in its level of inequality at the end of the previous decade.”
And to forestall another meandering journey, Israel lobbied hard to join the OECD whose data gathering and analysis have high integrity; so this is no left-wing plot.
The article that IH linked to should be read in context as opposed to cutting and pasting a sentence to suit one’s POV. I think that the relevant language is as follows:
“Israel experienced a rise in the level of inequality in the past decade and a half, placing it second behind Mexico in the number of poor families in the OECD.
According to the Gini index, Israel ranked fifth among OECD countries in its level of inequality at the end of the previous decade.
These conclusions are based on various comparisons between Israel and other OECD states relating to quality of life and conducted by the Finance Ministry. The ministry used data recently published by the OECD in a report titled “How’s Life? Measuring Well-Being.”
The report examines 11 measures of well-being including income, jobs, housing, education, environment, health, safety and work-life balance.
The data suggest that Israel witnessed a significant rise in the level of quality of life in the past decade, alongside other OECD member states.
Nevertheless, its relative ranking did not change during this period and Israel’s per-capita income remained lower that the average in the OECD.”
The real issue is the definition of “equality”. There is a huge difference between viewing “equality” as rooted in what one does with the liberties granted as a member of society, as opposed to “equality” meaning that as a matter of state policy, the operating assumption of the state is that the state offers cradle to grave resources for the poor, which arguably have little to with the basic functions of government, and paternalistically dictates what citizens do with their lives with respect to their social mobility and the choice of light bulbs in their homes,while not offering any policies that would enable more citizens to be gainfully employed, and while unduly taxing and regulating its most productive citizens and preventing the development of new sources of employment. Obviously the above survey noted the differences between quality of life and per-capita income, thereby again proving, unless one is a hard core Marxist, that one does not live by bread alone.