Kol HaRav: Celebrating the Downfall of an Enemy

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R. Meir Simcha of Dvinsk on Celebrating the Downfall of an Enemy, posted here (link):

When Passover was observed in Egypt [during the year of the Exodus] the prohibition of eating chametz was only for one day, and so too the full festival was not practiced.

And in my opinion, the reason why nevertheless he now taught them something that would pertain to future generations was in order to teach them the wholesomeness of God’s commandments, for other nation, with their sophisticated religions, turn the day of victory, the day of their enemy’s downfall, into a holiday, a victory celebration.

Continued here: link.

And see these posts: I, II.

About Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the Publisher and Editor-in-Chief of TorahMusings.com, a leading website on Orthodox Jewish scholarly subjects, and the Book Editor of the Orthodox Union’s Jewish Action magazine. He writes a popular column on issues of Jewish law and thought featured in newspapers and magazines, including The Jewish Link of New Jersey, The Jewish Echo and The Vues. In the past, he has served as the President of the small Jewish publisher Yashar Books and as the Managing Editor of OU Press. Rabbi Student serves on the Executive Committee of the Rabbinical Council of America and as Director of the Halacha Commission of the Rabbinical Alliance of America. He also serves on the Editorial Board of Jewish Action magazine and the Board of OU Press. He has published five English books, the most recent titled Search Engine volume 2: Finding Meaning in Jewish Texts -- Jewish Leadership, and served as the American editor for Morasha Kehillat Yaakov: Essays in Honour of Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks.

62 comments

  1. See Yeshurun 15 page 706

  2. Horrible. And only serves to confirm my suspicions about the true reason for Kol HaRav.

  3. Moshe Shoshan

    Horrible? The R. Meir Simcha is Horrible? Dear me.
    Why not submit a statement to the blog from a gadol advocating “bn’pol ovyvecha tismach”? I bet they would post it.

  4. Daniel Weltman

    While this is certainly a view supported by some midrash (no full Hallel on 7th day of Passover because it is regrettable that anyone lose life), there are midrashim that teach differently(the reason for no full Hallel is a technicality having to do with the offerings of the day).

    It is important to point out that both views can find support throughout Rabbinic literature.

    Indeed, in Meg. 16a, a description of Haman being kicked by Mordechai, and demanding, “does your tradition not teach, ‘be not happy at the fall of your enemies?”. Mordechai responds, “that refers to Jews. In relation to you, Haman, it says, ‘you shall trample his altars.”

  5. What’s horrible is the choice to post this at this time. We all know full well why we’re being “graced” with this post, and it’s not because of some sudden love for R’ Meir Simcha- for whom I have much respect, this rather forced vort notwithstanding.

    And you know full well that Jewish belief doesn’t begin and end with that (wrenched out of context) pasuk.

    Honestly? When I saw all the Catholics agonizing over the death of Osama, my (unposted) reaction was “Thank God I’m Jewish.” Seeing all these Jewish agonizers…changes this somewhat.

    As I’ve posted elsewhere, sayings of R’ Meir Kahane fit very well with Kol HaRav’s ostensible (but, let’s be honest here, not entirely honest) mission statement. Let’s see them post something of his.

  6. Daniel: Indeed, the latter explanation makes more sense, considering that we say half-Hallel on Chol HaMoed as well.

    It’s very clear that statements about “enemies” such as in Mishpatim or Mishlei refer to personal, not national, enemies.

  7. Horrible? The R. Meir Simcha is Horrible? Dear me.

    It’s OK for a Jew before 1948 in a hostile Eastern European country. For someone who is capable of defending themselves, and has the responsibility of defending themselves, it is horrible to be indifferent to the success of your self-defense efforts.

    R’ Meir Simcha’s take on the sources is not the pshat, and his attitude is horrible when applied to our circumstances.

  8. aryeh lebowitz

    I put together an outline and source sheet on this topic (including the Meshech Chachmah). You will note that the application of b’nfol oyevcha al tismach to the Egyptians is against an explicit gemara in Megillah.

    http://www.yutorah.org/_materials/downfall%20of%20wicked.pdf

  9. Moshe Shoshan

    Nahum,

    Meyer Kahane has never been accepted as a leading Talmid Chacham of the sort who are generally cited on the Kol Torah blog. Indeed his ideas have been rejected almost universally by gedolei torah of every stripe. I think however, there may be statements my more main stream figures like R. Avrom z”l or R. Zvi Yehuda z”l or R. Medan Shlit”a that might provide some counter balance to R. Meir Simcha’s words.

  10. Joseph Kaplan

    Since Nachum mentioned the elephant in the room — the reaction to the killing of OBL — I’m happy that we were “graced” with this post because it makes us think about what is, in fact, an important issue. I’m no halachist but I once looked into this issue a few years back and my conclusions were that there were texts that went both ways. The most obvious example is kriyat yan suf where the angels are told not to sing praises and the Jews sing Az Yashir. My conclusion was that there is no black and white answer on when or how it is appropriate to rejoice; that we must make that decision for ourselves on a case by case basis keeping in mind the values of both az yashir and bnfol oyvecha/ma’aseh yadai.

    In the case of OBL I had a mixed reaction. I thought that those who gathered to wave American flags and sing the national anthem displayed an appropriate thankful patriotism. However, those who chanted U-S-A and otherwise behaved as if their team just won the world series displayed a disappointing triumphalism and arrogance.

  11. Daniel Weltman

    >Meyer Kahane has never been accepted as a leading Talmid Chacham of the sort who are generally cited on the Kol Torah blog.

    Whatever one’s opinion of Rabbi Kahane’s , I think his semicha from the Mir entitles him to be referred to as Rabbi or R.

    > Indeed his ideas have been rejected almost universally by gedolei torah of every stripe.

    This is not the place for this debate, so I will suffice with saying that this blanket statement is certainly false.

  12. “Angels” being the operative word there, Joseph.

    As to “team,” well, “The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton.”

  13. Daniel Weltman

    In terms of Bin Laden, I thought the most appropriate emotion was expressed by Canada’s Stephen Harper, who said that news of Osama Bin Laden’s death gave him “sober satisfaction”.

  14. Look, if Kol HaRav said that they were out to publicize left-wing views, I wouldn’t have a complaint. But don’t give yourself a pareve title and then present one side.

  15. Daniel Weltman

    > For someone who is capable of defending themselves, and has the responsibility of defending themselves, it is horrible to be indifferent to the success of your self-defense efforts.

    This mischaracterizes the quote from R Meir Simcha. As has been pointed out by myself and others above, R Meir Simcha is not saying anything more than a midrash says, and to call that “horrible” is simply to pick on RMS because it is easier than calling the midrash “horrible”. I think that is “horrible”. 🙂

    The point is that there are two sides to this issue, amply supported by Rabbinic literature; they are both part of our tradition, and both contribute to the Jewish ethic.

  16. Shachar Ha'amim

    “Whatever one’s opinion of Rabbi Kahane’s , I think his semicha from the Mir entitles him to be referred to as Rabbi or R.”

    and when he founded a political party and was elected to parliament he lost that privilige. As did former ministers such as Yitzchak Meir Levin and Yehuda Amital. and former MK’s such as Hanan Porat, Haim Drukman, Menachem HaCohen, Yitzcahk Peretz and a whole host of others.

    At best they can only be referred to as Rabbi or R. when it is in the context of an extremely narrow rabbinical function issue – e.g. if you ask them a shayla on a cow’s liver you can say “I asked a shayla and Rav Drukman/Rav Amital/Rav Peretz said the cow was kosher”. But not much beyond that…

  17. Kol HaRav even has a picture of R’ Amital on its masthead. Nu?

  18. Moshe Shoshan

    I r repeat my challenge. Submit a piece advocating rejoicing over the death of ones enemies (and not simply over the concomitant salvation) written by a major rabbinic figure and lets see if Gil and Ellie accept it.

  19. Thank you for pointing out that I have red lines on the right and not just the left. No, I would not allow something from a Kahanist point of view. Nor would I allow something from R. Avi Weiss.

  20. R. Yair Hoffman: http://5tjt.com/international-news/10291-rejoicing-over-osama-bin-ladins-death-the-jewish-point-of-view

    >The conclusion? It seems that the words of Rebbeinu Yonah on Pirkei Avos that if one rejoices at the Kavod Shamayim – the honor that finally justice has been accomplished with the knowledge that the honor of Heaven has been further enhanced and uplifted with this man’s death – then one may rejoice, but nonetheless, it should still be tempered. We do recite Hallel on Pesach, but not a full one. One should make sure that the feeling not come from an improper emotion. One may also take pride in the fact that one was the tool for which the honor of Heaven was uplifted. So, we ask all readers to join in this thought, with the proper intentions, “Go USA!”

  21. As far as I am aware, so far the White House has made no claim that its attack on Bin Laden’s compound was conducted under the auspices of the Noahide Code, as verified by a pesak halakhah by a rabbinic authority competent to adjudicate capital cases. I will therefore wait and see until further information surfaces before I offer the White House my congratulations. President Barack Obama is a wonderful human being and I wish him only the best of success, but he isn’t necessarily R. Moshe Feinstein.

    That said, the inability of Osama Bin Laden to endanger the Jewish People any further is a wonderful Kiddush Hashem. In the spirit of all the excellent comments above, I am thinking to myself – how can I show my gratitude to HKB”H that I am now safe from the lethal anti-semitic hostility of Bin Laden? Bin Laden was very careful about the separation between ladies and gentlemen in public; that was his spiritual strength (even if for the wrong reasons, in that Bin Laden believed in a false prophet). I take it that Bin Laden’s partitions in places of assembly would satisfy even the most stringent opinion regarding (lehavdil) mechitzat Beit Hakenesset. I am therefore thinking of adopting R. Joel Teitelbaum’s position of requiring a visual barrier in the synagogue (Shu”t Divrei Yoe’l, OC 10). After all, even though R. Moshe Feinstein rejects R. Teitelbaum position, R. Feinstein does encourage ba’alei nefesh to be strict like R. Teitelbaum. So, perhaps with this victory from the hands of Bin Laden, it’s time for me to become a ba’al nefesh, as a sign of appreciation to the Ribbono Shel Olam.

  22. Here’s a quotation from a “major rabbinic figure” (Judges 5:24-31; KJV):

    Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

    He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.

    She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen’s hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.

    At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.

    The mother of Sisera looked out at a window, and cried through the lattice, Why is his chariot so long in coming? why tarry the wheels of his chariots?

    Her wise ladies answered her, yea, she returned answer to herself,

    Have they not sped? have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two; to Sisera a prey of divers colors, a prey of divers colors of needlework, of divers colors of needlework on both sides, meet for the necks of them that take the spoil?

    So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years.

  23. R’ Scott,
    Well said. Thank you for the insight. One might respond that the military activity we see in Tanakh was authorized by prophecy, as RMF in fact asserts in IM CM 2:78.
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=921&st=&pgnum=316
    Thus, since Devorah the Prophetess authorized the war against Sisera, Yael’s action constituted a mitzvah. In any event, I’m not disagreeing with you, and I value the argument you raise. Indeed, I am not disagreeing with any of the previous distinguished commentors on this forum.

  24. “Here’s a quotation from a “major rabbinic figure”

    Women Orthodox rabbis go back as far asthe days of Tanach. Wow! (R. Avi Weiss might be upset he wasn’t the first.)

  25. Tehilim (58:11): “the righteous man shall rejoice when he sees vengeance; he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.”

  26. תהילים נח:יא

    יִשְׂמַח צַדִּיק כִּי-חָזָה נָקָם פְּעָמָיו יִרְחַץ בְּדַם הָרָשָׁע.

  27. lawrence kaplan

    Rabbi Spira: Your first paragraph is absurd, your second is morally outrageous. First, did you really expect President Obama to consult with a rabbinic authority about the halakhic niceties of killing Osama Bin Laden according to Noachide law?! What world are you living in? (This is aside from your amaratzut in assuming that Governments in a war-time situation are bound by the normal restrictions of Noachide law in Capital cases.)

    Much worse, is your morally obscene suggestion that an appropriate response to Bin Laden’s death is to learn from this monster’s example and impose increased sexual segragation on women in synagogues. I wonder if you plan to consult with the women in the synagogue of which you are the rabbi as to whether they feel your further isolating them is an approriate response to Bin Laden’s death. How else should we commemorate his death? Tzenius Hekshers? separate store hours?? Your view is like that of many Hareidim in Israel who believe we should “learn” from the Muslims and increase sexual segregation. I wonder if you appreciate that the practices in the Muslim world of extreme sexual segregation, women wearing the veil, genital mutilation, honor killings, etc. are all part of a package deal. And do not start giving me hillukim. I am aware of your hillukum. Until you aplogize for your inexcusable comment, I would kindly request you to please not refer to me anymore as “Mori ve-Rabbi.” I am ashamed to have been your teacher.

    Coming back to the main subject: The primary reason why we do not recite (full) Hallel on the last 6 (7) days of Pesach is that given in the Gemara of “einam mehulakim be-Korbenoteihem.” The reason of maasei yadai is only be found in the late post-classical midrash ve-yosha. I remember in High School once discussing this with my grandfather, Reb Yitzhak Gross, z”l. I mentioned to him the reason of Maasei yadai. He chastised me: “Yankele, you’re a Yeshiva bochur. You don’t know the gemara of “einam mehulakim be-korbenoteihem?”

  28. lawrence kaplan

    I was referring to R. Spira’s 11:49 am post.

  29. I also suggest that anyone who accepts the applicability of this post to OBL should make sure that next purim they not make any noise upon the mention of Haman’s name. after all, how can we rejoice regarding his downfall. Further, we should move purim to a different day – one that does not commemorate the vengeance of the Jews upon their enemies.

  30. Deborah wasn’t a rabbi, but she was a prophet(ess) and a judge. (Judges 4:4-5) Tosfos asks in several places how she could serve as a judge, and gives various answers.

  31. Scott, you’re the one who originally called her, and I quote, a “major rabbinic figure,” not me.

  32. “So, perhaps with this victory from the hands of Bin Laden, it’s time for me to become a ba’al nefesh, as a sign of appreciation to the Ribbono Shel Olam.”

    If you want to be a ba’al nefesh, YOU should take on some hardship, not do it on the backs of the women in your shul. Even better; you want to do something to “show [your] gratitude to HKB”H that [you are] now safe from the lethal anti-semitic hostility of Bin Laden”? Give more tzedakah, do more acts of chesed, be kinder to widows and orphans, learn more Torah. While I can’t speak for HKB”H, my guess is that He will appreciate that more than imposing an unnecessary stringency on the women in your shul.

  33. Joseph Kaplan

    The last 2 were from me.

  34. From the tenor of some of the posts, I had no idea that R Meir Simcha and the Meshech Chachamah was not a mainstream work.

  35. Lawrence Kaplan

    My brother’s tokhahah of Rabbi Spira, while quite strong, was certainly kinder than my own, and, for that reason, perhaps more effective as well. I will take it as implicit tokhahah to me on his part as to how to give tokhahah. In self-extenuation I will only say that my brother does not have to bear the burden of having Rabbi Spira regularly refer to him as “Mori ve-Rabbi.”

  36. I thank my superiors for setting me straight. May all of humanity see the light of Torah.

  37. >From the tenor of some of the posts, I had no idea that R Meir Simcha and the Meshech Chachamah was not a mainstream work.

    I am having a hard time parsing the syntax of this sentence. Can you please re-write it in a clearer fashion?

  38. By my comment last night, I meant to say that I gratefully acknowledge and accept the responses I received.

  39. Lawrence Kaplan

    Rabbi Spira: Neither of your most recent comments indicates that you begin to understand what my brother and and I found so objectionable in your remarks.

  40. Chardal-at least two posts openly dismissed the views of R Meir Simcha.

    IIRC, American intelligence during early 1943, ascertained that Admiral Yammamoto, the brilliant architecht of the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor and Clark Field, who spent a lot of time in the US during the 1920s and 1930s, travelled in an unescorted transport plane. FDR, fully aware of Yammmamoto’s role as a strategist and planner, ordered that he be shot down, which was accomplished by a small squadron of American fighters. I tend to doubt that FDR or anyone in the US, lost any sleep over that event.

  41. “This is aside from your amaratzut in assuming that Governments in a war-time situation are bound by the normal restrictions of Noachide law in Capital cases”

    Is it clear that the war on al Qaeda is a halachic milchama? Is there a requirement that milchama be between nations in which case al Qaeda wouldn’t qualify? (I would guess that Palestinians, who have a government, security officers etc. probably would qualify.) Is there discussion about this?

  42. Michael Rogovin

    I am satisfied and grateful that OBL has been dealt with by the US. I reflect soberly that the only way to stop groups like Al Quaida is to kill them. When we kill a human being, no matter who or how evil, we should not be overjoyed. It may be necessary, it may be moral, but death should never be the cause for celebration. We did not declare the Purim feast upon the death of Haman or to celebrate the deaths of our enemies, but because of our deliverance from evil. We are not there yet.

    I thought this was one of the better reflections on the week’s events: http://chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/was-it-just-to-kill-bin-laden/34907

  43. I thank Mori ViRebbi R. Kaplan for indicating I need to be more clear. I condemn the egregious crimes against humanity orchestrated by Bin Laden. How could he propel airplanes into buildings? Did Bin Laden never hear of Tractate Bava Kamma? I am relieved that Bin Laden is no longer a threat. All of Al Qa’ida should be inspired by Bin Laden’s death to immediately repent by clicking on http://www.noahidenations.com and embracing the peaceful way of Noahide Code life described on that website.

    My current condemnation is directed solely at Bin Laden, and does not necessarily refer to any of the 9/11 suspects currently detained by the U.S. authorities in Guatanemo Bay or elsewhere. I do not wish to prejudice the outcome of those detentions; perhaps they will be given commuted sentences or even exoneration.

    R’ Anon,
    Thank you for raising this important issue. Yes, the Maharal of Prague, in his Gur Aryeh commentary on the episode of Shechem, says that Noahide nations can wage war against one another. Many poskim disagree with the Maharal and forbid war for Noahides, as described by RJDB in the “Miscellaneous” chapter in Contemporary Halakhic Problems II. In Benetivot Hahalakhah I, p. 83 (as part of a discussion regarding pre-emptive war for Jews [pp. 77-84]), RJDB in fact rules that warfare is forbidden for Noahides. See also Benetivot Hahalakhah I, pp. 85-105 and idem II, pp. 153-168, regarding the power of the Noahide state to impose the death penalty on criminals. A key sugya in this discussion is the gemara in Shevu’ot 35b regarding “Ha’elef lekha Shelomoh”.
    See also:
    http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/711600/Rabbi_Dr._J._David_Bleich/War_I_of_II
    and
    http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/711601/Rabbi_Dr._J._David_Bleich/Warr_II_of_II

  44. MiMedinat HaYam

    “I tend to doubt that FDR or anyone in the US, lost any sleep over that event.”

    that was before the (post war) geneva convention, which outlined that it was legal anyway. (ditto OBL — an ununiformed officer, subject to run of the mill “police actions”.)
    (ditto the manhattan project, and his successor’s dropping the atom bombs.)

    historical note: while a student at MIT, (upcoming naval officer) yamamoto (almost) never attended class. instead, he spent his time on the us rail system, touring / travelling the 48 states. (?49th state?) supposedly, he did well in his classses at mit.

  45. R’ Steve Brizel,
    Thank you for the fascinating episode with FDR.
    R’ Michael Rovin,
    Thank you for the appropriate insights.
    See also:
    http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/responseTerrorism.pdf

  46. Lawrence Kaplan

    R. Spira: Thank you for your clarifications with respect to your first paragraph and for your learned references. You did not respond, however, to the objections my brother and I raised with regard to your second paragraph re commemorating Bin Laden’s death by raising the height of mehitzot in synagogues.

  47. MiMedinat HaYam wrote in response:

    “I tend to doubt that FDR or anyone in the US, lost any sleep over that event.”

    that was before the (post war) geneva convention, which outlined that it was legal anyway. (ditto OBL — an ununiformed officer, subject to run of the mill “police actions”.)
    (ditto the manhattan project, and his successor’s dropping the atom bombs.)

    George Will once wrote that if the Civil War with all of its carnage on and off the battlefields was fought with today’s media coverage, slavery would be legal in the US. Just think about the suspension of habeas corpus, the naval blockade of the South, Sherman’s march through Georgia and South Carolina and Sheridan’s destruction of the Shenandoah Valley- does anyone think that the Geneva Convention or the ICJ would have permitted the same?!

  48. R’ Riskin this week was a breath of fresh air among the nonsense. See his last paragraph especially.

    http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/Judaism/Article.aspx?id=219398

    As to R’ Spira, I’m really shocked that someone can treat the death of 3,000 people so cavalierly, as a sugya in Bava Kamma, and can suggest that Bin Laden should have considered the same. I briefly thought he was joking some time back, but now I simply think he’s mad.

  49. > did not declare the Purim feast upon the death of Haman or to celebrate the deaths of our enemies, but because of our deliverance from evil. We are not there yet.

    Is that why the date that was chosen to commemorate it was the day the Jews took revenge against their enemies??

  50. Don’t even try, chardal. 🙂

  51. Shalom Spira wrote

    “Did Bin Laden never hear of Tractate Bava Kamma?”

    How dare you make a joke at the expense of the thousands who were killed by this rasha.

  52. Anon,
    I assure you it was not even slightly a joke. R. Spira was 100% serious in his comment (Difficult though that may be to believe.)

  53. Lawrence Kaplan

    What is particularly disturbing is that R. Spira cited Bava Kamma, as if Bin Laden’s main crime was destroying property and not killing people!

    I would call R. Spira’s attention to the Ramban on Gen. 6:13, that with reference to a rational mitzah like the prohibition of hamas, i.e., theft and oppression, there is no need for a prophet to warn the people. They should know it on their own. How much more so, for someone to know mass murder is a crime and an abomination there is no need for him to have studied Bava Kamma!

  54. I am surprised that noone has posted a reference to Megilah 16a, where the Talmud seems to state that while we may rejoice at the death of a non-Jewish enemy of the Jewish people, we should refrain from doing so at the demise of a Jewish enemy of his people.

  55. aryeh lebowitz

    Steve – it has been referenced in several comments on this thread (starting with the fourth). Oddly, the Meshech Chachmah ignores that gemara

  56. Aryeh-thanks-I agree with your comment re the Meshech Chachmah.

  57. FWIW, President Obama was on 60 Minutes tonight. As one who had and still has grave misivings about the course of his presidency, especially vis a vis the Middle East and Israel, the assassination of bin Laden, Yimach Shmo VZicro was handled in a manner that not even Tom Clancy could have described in one of his all too true novels. The President and his national security team, and especially the Navy Seals, deserve a great round of applause for taking the risks to assassinate Bin Laden.

  58. I thank my interlocutors for correctly refuting me. My intention – as R’ MDJ accurately discerned (for which I am most appreciative) – was to communicate to the followers of Al Qa’ida, Hamas, etc. that if they want a real religiously emotional achievement and/or a real religiously intellectual achievement in life, they should buy an Artscroll Tractate Bava Kamma (-not yet translated into Arabic, but I take it that the cognoscenti among those organizations understand English), learn about the value of the sanctity of human life and property presented in this tractate, and respect it. I apologize for my carelessness in communicating my message. Special thanks to R’ Nachum for the insight from R. Riskin and to Mori ViRebbi R. Kaplan for the insight from Ramban.

  59. lawrence kaplan

    I give up.

  60. Lawrence Kaplan

    I was not aware that the followers of Al-Qaida and Hamas read hirhurim. But you never know.

  61. MiMedinat HaYam

    Steve Brizel on May 6, 2011 at 12:49 pm

    MiMedinat HaYam wrote in response:
    (discussing lincoln “atrocities” — does anyone think that the Geneva Convention or the ICJ would have permitted the same?!

    assuming this post is still active — ICJ has (general) exemption for civil war. but thanx for buttressing my point.

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