R. Mordechai Willig calculates the preferred minimum amount of matzah to eat, i.e. the size of a ke-zayis. This is, by necessity, based on approximations and averages. Here is how I understand his steps: 1. According to measurements in Israel, the average size of a contemporary egg is 50 ccs. (The majority of classical authorities do NOT double this size.) 2. Measurements have shown that an egg’s volume decreases by 10% when the shell is removed, which leaves us with 45 ccs.

How Much Matzah?

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(repost from two years ago)

R. Mordechai Willig calculates the preferred minimum amount of matzah to eat, i.e. the size of a ke-zayis (link – audio). This is, by necessity, based on approximations and averages. Here is how I understand his steps:

  1. According to measurements in Israel, the average size of a contemporary egg is 50 ccs. (The majority of classical authorities do NOT double this size.)
  2. Measurements have shown that an egg’s volume decreases by 10% when the shell is removed, which leaves us with 45 ccs.
  3. The strict view is that a ke-zayis is half of an egg’s volume, which is 22.5 ccs.
  4. Measuring the required volume of a matzah should be done on the matzah as it is, not by crushing it into crumbs. The weight of 22.5 ccs of water is 22.5 grams.
  5. Experiments show that the equivalent volume of matzah has half the weight of water. This means that a ke-zayis of matzah weighs approximately 11.25 grams.
  6. 11.25 grams is about 0.4 ounces.
  7. There are on average 7.5 handmade matzos per pound (16 ounces) and 15 machine-made matzos per pound, which means that an average handmade matzah is 2.13 ounces and an average machine-made matzah is 1.07 ounces.
  8. Therefore, a ke-zayis is less than 1/5th of a handmade matzah and less than 2/5th of a machine-made matzah.

R. Willig emphasizes that matzah at the seder is the only biblical obligation to eat a specific food and that, according to R. Soloveitchik, the Rambam is of the view that you fulfill a voluntary mitzvah for eating more than a ke-zayis of matzah. The minimum here should not be mistaken for the maximum.

For those of us who have the custom of eating horseradish as marror, this might help. For a few years, I would not recite the blessing over marror because I did not think I would eat a ke-zayis. Even though now I can eat plenty of horseradish, I think these measurements might be useful sometime in the future.

(See also this post: link)

About Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the Publisher and Editor-in-Chief of TorahMusings.com, a leading website on Orthodox Jewish scholarly subjects, and the Book Editor of the Orthodox Union’s Jewish Action magazine. He writes a popular column on issues of Jewish law and thought featured in newspapers and magazines, including The Jewish Link, The Jewish Echo and The Vues. In the past, he has served as the President of the small Jewish publisher Yashar Books and as the Managing Editor of OU Press. Rabbi Student serves on the Executive Committee of the Rabbinical Council of America. He also serves on the Editorial Boards of Jewish Action magazine, the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society and the Achieve Journal of Behavioral Health, Religion & Community, as well as the Board of OU Press. He has published five English books, the most recent titled Search Engine volume 2: Finding Meaning in Jewish Texts -- Jewish Leadership, and served as the American editor for Morasha Kehillat Yaakov: Essays in Honour of Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks.

65 comments

  1. Yi’yasher kochakha to our Rosh Yeshiva R. Student. It should be noted that R. Willig is disputing the Chazon Ish in OC 39. [And disputing the Chazon Ish (with reverence) can indeed be a great mitzvah, as RMF writes in IM YD 3:88. Just we should be aware this is an outstanding dispute between Chazon Ish and R. Willig.] According to Chazon Ish, we must double the size of the egg.

    I precipitated a friendly discussion in the RIETS beit midrash during 5767 over this issue. The beautiful silver goblet for havdalah did not contain the Chazon Ish’s measurement of a revi’it. I donated a simple but large glass to the beit midrash that contained Chazon Ish’s measurement. RHS (who agrees with R. Willig) said it’s better hiddur mitzvah to use a fancy silver goblet with a smaller shiur (since the smaller shiur is normative). RJDB (who sympathizes with Chazon Ish as a possibility lichumra) said it’s better hiddur mitzvah to use a large glass which satisfies the Chazon Ish’s measurement. To emphasize his encouragement, RJDB even purchased a bottle of wine and gave it to RIETS to compensate the yeshiva for the cost of the extra wine. However, RHS has an advantage: he is actually present at YU for Shabbat, and so his view carried the day.

  2. william gewirtz

    Shalem Spira, the CI ate based on a double sized egg. however, there is active debate as to whether other participants in his seder ate a shiur akin to R. willig’s or the CI’s personal chumrah. see techumin 14 for a full discussion. as well to double an egg AND follow the yesh omrim in the SA (kezayit = 1/2 egg), would imply that hillel only ate according to his shittah once and chocked as result. kdding aside, see the chatam sofer’s comments about combining these two chumrot (something i believe the MB (and the modern chumrah industry) endorses for general use.)

    for those a tad more academically bent, approximating a zayit based on an egg, occured because as a student of the mordechai observed: they never saw an olive (which he says is less than 1/6th of an egg!) as a result rishonim combed through shas to find ratios. the Ri found 1/2 and the rabbeinu tam disputed that claiming that gemara was discussing the capacity of the bais habeliah not the size of a zayit. BTW, modern scientific experiments validate Rabbeinu Tam. Most/almost all rishonim assume an olive is smaller than a grogaras and there at least 3 gogaras in an egg – deriving the 1/3 shiur (an upper bound). in reality, an olive is approximately either 1/10 or 1/20th of a shmurah matzah based on species of olive. (which we know is NOT SMALLER today.) both r. chaim volozhiner and sochathover rebbe held that small shiur lehalakha.

    it is important for those who have difficulty with wine and / or matzah to be aware of these well – founded smaller shiurim.

  3. I remember my brother coming home from MTA sometime in the 70s with an exaggerated (minimum) shiur for matza that he was taught. I think it was for multiple machine-made matzot.

    All very de rigueur in those early lurches to the right. There were even templates as I recall. Does anyone remember the details?

  4. Did R Willig comment on if one need eat two k’zeitim, and if so, if the minimum shiur of the second (since it would be d’rabbanan) would be smaller?

  5. * Should say (since it would not even be d’rabbanan)

    I doubt anyone would hold that the second k’zayit is more than a chumra.

  6. It seems R. Willig has changed his stance to a more machmir one:
    http://www.yutorah.org/togo/pesach/articles/Pesach_To-Go_-_5771_Rabbi_Willig.pdf

  7. Also, as R. Benish points out, many who accept the Noda Biyehuda’s contention do so mainly for things that are truly dependent on the size of an egg, such as a revi’is, whilst not doing so for the kezayis measurement. See here:
    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=13108&st=&pgnum=107&hilite=

  8. “For those of us who have the custom of eating horseradish as marror, this might help. For a few years, I would not recite the blessing over marror because I did not think I would eat a ke-zayis.”

    Why didn’t you get some lettuce? Surely an explicit mitzvah has more weight than your custom?

  9. ” Just we should be aware this is an outstanding dispute between Chazon Ish and R. Willig.] According to Chazon Ish, we must double the size of the egg.”

    Its essentially a dispute between the the Nodah beyehudah, Vilna Gaon, CI and everyone else.
    Note of interest that R Chaim Volozhin refused to have either his Yeshiva or his family follow the the Vilna Gaons viewpoint-he felt that mesorah of what is required beats logic. Though R Chaim Volozhin as a talmid of the Gaon personally would be machmir but not for his family or Yeshiva.
    Thus of course the Ravs quip about the CI viewpoint: ” and grandfather (referring to Rav Chaim Brisker) was not yotzeh kezayis matzah” which of course is ridiculous.
    From this vignette one can see the importance of mesorah/custom in the Briskers and the Rav. Thus, logic does not beat practice-especially important to discussions of the Rav see what he did or told people to do halacha lemaaseh- chakirahs do not make his beliefs lemaaseh.

  10. Shlomo on April 15, 2011 at 4:21 am
    “For those of us who have the custom of eating horseradish as “marror, this might help. For a few years, I would not recite the blessing over marror because I did not think I would eat a ke-zayis.”

    Why didn’t you get some lettuce? Surely an explicit mitzvah has more weight than your custom?”
    A separate post but romainne appears to follow the gemarrahs preference better than horseradish-starting with sweet and becoming bitter.

  11. The strict view is that a ke-zayis is half of an egg’s volume, which is 22.5 ccs.

    What would be the reason for defining this strict view as the minimum shiur, when according to the Rishonim of Sefarad – who actually had access to olives, unlike the author of the strict view – an olive is the size of an olive?

    (See http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2010/03/evolution-of-olive.html for a full explanation of how the idea that a kezayis is larger than an olive evolved).

  12. Anonymous – IIRC, R. Willig says that for the second kezayis, one can rely on the shitta than a kezayis is the shiur of a contemporary olive – thus by eating 2/5 of a matza one has already fulfilled that inyan. As an aside, the Chazon Ish did not hold of this inyan at all, and only ate one kezayis. Rav Ovadia Yosef holds that the inyan of two kezaisim only applies to the one leading the seder, as his grandson writes here:
    http://www.halachayomit.co.il/DisplayRead.asp?readID=729

  13. R. Willig says that for the second kezayis, one can rely on the shitta than a kezayis is the shiur of a contemporary olive

    Why can’t one rely on that for the first kezayis – especially since it is the view of many Rishonim as well as post-Shulchan Aruch authorities, and is vastly better grounded than the other view?

  14. Perhaps because the position linking kezaisim to eggs was codified in the Shulchan Aruch, albeit as a yesh omrim.

  15. But, in order to pre-empt the argument that it’s a view that was was canonized and accepted by Klal Yisrael, that’s why I specifically noted that there are Acharonim AFTER the Shulchan Aruch who rejected this “yesh omrim.”

  16. J- you wrote: “Rav Ovadia Yosef holds that the inyan of two kezaisim only applies to the one leading the seder, as his grandson writes here:”

    Just to provide another reference, I happened to be looking at this issue in Rav Ovadia’s “Chazon Ovadia” on Pesach the other day, and he says it himself in a footnote al atar in his halachot of the seder.

  17. “A separate post but romainne appears to follow the gemarrahs preference better than horseradish-starting with sweet and becoming bitter.”

    Endive might be a better preference, since romaine’s bitterness has largely been bred out of it.

  18. I hate to sound like a broken record but the past thing to use for maror is what your grandparents used.

  19. Surely not if it means that you’re not going to be doing the mitzvah and making a berachah!

  20. william gewirtz

    J, the yesh omrim refers to the ratio – 1/2 versus 1/3, the primary opinion. Both views in the SA specify the zayit by a ratio to an egg, a tradition that originated in northern europe as I noted above.

  21. Also, it’s not as though your great-great-grandparents had anything against using lettuce or endives; they just couldn’t get hold of any.

  22. Dr. Gewirtz – Of course the egg/olive relationship was originated by the Rishonim – the point is that the fact that it is codified in the shulchan aruch gives this opinion (ie that of the Ri) more prominence in pesak than those which weren’t. I do not deny R. Natan’s contention that there were many who carried on using an olive’s volume afterwards – however the fact that using an egg-based ratio is so commonly discussed in the later Ashkenazi acharonim means that it is hard to discount this opinion entirely, notwithstanding its likely basis in factual error. I’m not claiming that R. Natan is wrong, more that it’s hard to definitively pasken that way. I do take exception, however, to the suggestion that one may not be yotzei marror with horseradish – again this was accepted by many poskim – the original intention of the Mishna is, to my mind, totally irrelevant. I think there is a gemara about amora being yotzei arba minim with hadasim that others considered passul, since his rebbi did it – this is analogous to R. Gil’s suggestion about davka using whatever your minhag is.

  23. Natan Slifkin: Surely not if it means that you’re not going to be doing the mitzvah and making a berachah!

    Yes and no. Certainly in front of your parents and grandparents you should not deviate from their custom. If you really need to, go into a different room and eat lettuce.

    Also, it’s not as though your great-great-grandparents had anything against using lettuce or endives; they just couldn’t get hold of any

    I’m a believer in minhag. That attitude leads to yeshivishe chumros.

  24. I’m not claiming that R. Natan is wrong, more that it’s hard to definitively pasken that way.

    To clarify – I’m not saying that there is no reason for someone to use a larger shiur for kezayis – just that there is no reason to rule out someone using the shiur of an olive.

  25. Certainly in front of your parents and grandparents you should not deviate from their custom.

    But what about when you’re not in front of them? Are you saying that it is better not to eat maror with berachah at all (as you say was your custom for several years), if you don’t feel that a kezayis of horseradish is the size of an olive or a similarly small amount, rather than to use lettuce?

  26. J: R. Willig didn’t change anything. He still says a ke-zayis is about 1/5th of a hand-made matzah and 2/5ths of a machine-made matzah.

    Natan Slifkin: This is the first year I’m making seder and I’ll be doing it like my grandfathers. The answer to your question, though, is to do both — eat a kezayis like your grandfathers did. Maybe you can add lettuce. I know people who do that but I don’t feel comfortable doing it.

  27. IIRC, and I listened to the shiur when you first put up this post two years ago – R. Willig explcitly claims that since we know that eggs did not shrink, there is no need to be choshesh for the Noda Biyehuda. Additionally, he says that one can use the smaller ‘olive size’ shiur for the inyan of two kezeisim; thus there is no need ot eat more than 2/5 of a machine matza. In the article in this year’s Pesach-To-Go however, he advises doubling the shiur to eat much more. To quote,

    “Preferably, one should double the shiur to less than four fifths of a machine-made matza or less than two fifths of a hand-baked matza. This accounts for the Mishna Brurah’s stringency to double the size of the eggs for a mitzvah mid’oraysa, while simultaneously complying with the
    rabbinic requirement quoted in the Shulchan Aruch to eat two k’zaysim.”

    IIRC, he advocates neither of these things in the audio shiur.

  28. Of course it’s always good to follow family custom. But I was referring to your account of not making a berachah; I don’t understand how that scenario comes about, and I wasn’t clear on whether you were saying that in some situations that is the correct approach. I would think that most parents wouldn’t mind at all if you eat lettuce; alternately, even if you have a hard time eating horseradish, you could just eat a piece that’s the size of an actual zayis. Surely yeshivishe chumros don’t override making a berachah?

  29. “what your grandparents used.”

    Gil, why grandparents and not parents? And, if grandparents, which, given they often came from different places with different minhagim?

  30. “Yes and no. Certainly in front of your parents and grandparents you should not deviate from their custom. If you really need to, go into a different room and eat lettuce.”

    I think this also yes and no, and depends on the custom and why you are deviating from it (as well as your parents’ and grandparents’ personality!). I don’t see what’s wrong with saying “I’d like to eat horseradish as you do, but I simply can’t swallow a kezayis the way you do. Is it alright if I switch to a marror that I can eat” and possibly following up with horseradish. Confessing a personal inability to eat enough of the stuff seems to me to be substantially different than saying “your minhag is all wrong!”

  31. The same choshuve rov whose seders I attended in the 1980s never measured the matzah. He told people to eat what they felt they should eat. The portions he distributed were on the small side. I never asked for more.

    I understand there are serious issues of halacha here, but I confess to never being terribly interested in them. I take it as a given that matzah eating isn’t supposed to be an athletic contest, like Nathan’s on July 4 (lehavdil). I assume the Torah wants us to eat in a normal way and at a normal pace, not to gorge ourselves. We are supposed to enjoy the matzah; that’s why we don’t eat it on Erev Pesach, and customarily much longer.

    In other contexts, the halacha discourages gluttonous eating, taking huge portions, huge gulps, etc. Why should this night be different from all other nights?

  32. Come to think of it, I’d be surprised if anyone has parents, and certainly grandparents, whose tradition is to be particular about a gigantic shiur for a kezayis.

  33. If you want to know how big an olive is, just go to Fairway at Broadway and W 74th St. In the back of the store they have an olive bar with every olive under the sun. Take the biggest olive there–it’s still tiny.

  34. R Willig postulated these amounts years ago. It is important to note in the YU Torah to Go article, that R Willig quotes the view of the Netziv that Acilas Matzah on Leil Seder is a Mitzvah Hemsheches or of a continuous nature, thereby insuring that no matter how one defines the shiur, the optimal way of fulfilling the Mitzvah Min HaTorah is to keep on eating Matzah throughout the meal.

  35. Scott,

    Common sense? On Hirhurim? In that case I guess we have to ask why this post is different from all other posts?

  36. “I would not recite the blessing over marror because I did not think I would eat a ke-zayis”
    What are you saying here? you gave up on a mitzvah d’rabanan just to keep a minhag to eat something which may not even be one of the minim of marror? what is the sense in this?

    Your grandfather in europe didn’t have his own arba minim (and the communal minim were probably half dried out) – would you turn that into a binding minhag as well?

  37. “Hirhurim on April 15, 2011 at 9:39 am
    I hate to sound like a broken record but the past thing to use for maror is what your grandparents used
    Natan Slifkin on April 15, 2011 at 9:44 am
    Also, it’s not as though your great-great-grandparents had anything against using lettuce or endives; they just couldn’t get hold of any”

    Agree with N Slifkin-especially since romaine appears preferable from Gemarrah-and of course practically probably the most realistic way of being able to eat even mycroft shiurim.

  38. “Benny on April 16, 2011 at 4:46 pm
    “I would not recite the blessing over marror because I did not think I would eat a ke-zayis”
    What are you saying here? you gave up on a mitzvah d’rabanan just to keep a minhag to eat something which may not even be one of the minim of marror? what is the sense in this?

    Your grandfather in europe didn’t have his own arba minim (and the communal minim were probably half dried out) – would you turn that into a binding minhag as well?”

    Never mind Europe many in North America did not have their own arba minim-even in YU I once worked sukkot meals-they served mostly for the community but YU kids stayed and most at minyan did not have their own minim. In grad school I used to go to a minyan-and on sukkotI remember the arba minim being shred during the nanauim in Hallel.

  39. “or of a continuous nature, thereby insuring that no matter how one defines the shiur, the optimal way of fulfilling the Mitzvah Min HaTorah is to keep on eating Matzah throughout the meal”

    achilas gasa?

  40. “Never mind Europe many in North America did not have their own arba minim-even in YU I once worked sukkot meals-they served mostly for the community but YU kids stayed and most at minyan did not have their own minim. In grad school I used to go to a minyan-and on sukkotI remember the arba minim being shred during the nanauim in Hallel.”

    The first time I had my own arba minim was when I was in law school and therefore away from home during chol hamoed. That’s a minhag that’s changed.

  41. Why is it the “strict” view to use a half-egg? Why isn’t it the “strict” view to actually use a zayis? Just because some Rishonim didn’t have access to zeitim, that means we have to suddenly deny the reality of Chazal who ate zeitim regularly? How is it a chumra to deny reality?

  42. Or a chumra to accept it, as Gil implies.

    Of course, if we all do as our grandparents, it’s going to be kind of hard to bring a korban Pesach, with all that entails. 🙂

  43. My grandparents ate small quantities. Reasonable sizes of matzah, chips of horseradish. I have to figure that came from my great-great-grandparents who came here in 1870 from Poland/Lita (Suvalk province), because my grandfather was non-religious, so anything we do has to have come from my grandmother, who would have gotten it from her father.

    R Blumenkrantz has a discussion of measurements, and includes really tiny ones in the name of R Chayim of Volozhin, which probably match what my grandparents did. I figure their minhagim got stuck before the whole shiurim craze started in the early 20th century.

  44. This was my post:

    Anonymous on April 15, 2011 at 3:12 pm
    R Willig postulated these amounts years ago. It is important to note in the YU Torah to Go article, that R Willig quotes the view of the Netziv that Acilas Matzah on Leil Seder is a Mitzvah Hemsheches or of a continuous nature, thereby insuring that no matter how one defines the shiur, the optimal way of fulfilling the Mitzvah Min HaTorah is to keep on eating Matzah throughout the meal

  45. Mycroft wrote:

    “Never mind Europe many in North America did not have their own arba minim-even in YU I once worked sukkot meals-they served mostly for the community but YU kids stayed and most at minyan did not have their own minim. In grad school I used to go to a minyan-and on sukkotI remember the arba minim being shred during the nanauim in Hallel”

    I recall Arbah Minim being available for a very reasonable price via the OU/NCSY when I was in high school during the late 1960s and early 1970s.

  46. Mycroft-Acilah Gasa is not an issue if one eats matzah in a normal fashion throughout the meal.

  47. For those interested, it is reported in Oro Shel Olam, a wonderful bio of RSZA, that RSZA was also not persuaded that we should follow the more Chumradik view of the expanded size of the shiurim.

  48. Steve – In halichos shlomo it says that he was mehader for de’oraysos to use the big shiur, but this was not a psak and in general he felt that the minhag should be like R. Chaim Naeh.

  49. Gil wrote,

    “I’m a believer in minhag. That attitude leads to yeshivishe chumros.”

    I think you hit the nail on its head. Most modern-day chumros, like you say, are a result of rejecting family and community minhagim.

  50. J-I think that it was RSZA was quoted as well as saying in Oro Shel Olam.

  51. “I recall Arbah Minim being available for a very reasonable price via the OU/NCSY when I was in high school during the late 1960s and early 1970s.”

    So it wasn’t a matter of price but of custom. There’s a famous story about the Rav and dating when it comes to this.

    Baruch: Being a thinking person means making distinctions. Some breaks with tradition are good, some are not. We contain multitudes, and consistency can be a hobgoblin.

  52. “I recall Arbah Minim being available for a very reasonable price via the OU/NCSY when I was in high school during the late 1960s and early 1970s.”

    I accept that-but it doesn’t change the fact that it was just not seen as essential to have ones own-one is perfectly Yotzeh the mitzvah on matanah al minas lehachzir. Just as most single people today do not own their own taalis for the times they will be a shaliach zibbur, baal koreh, get an aliyah etc the accepted practice was notto have ones own.

  53. “Nachum on April 17, 2011 at 3:37 pm
    “I recall Arbah Minim being available for a very reasonable price via the OU/NCSY when I was in high school during the late 1960s and early 1970s.”

    So it wasn’t a matter of price but of custom.”

    I can think of some Conservative synagogues that started pushing sukkah and lulav in the 50s and 60s. It is a ceremonial activity that fitted in with their movement. Until today I am familiar with conservative Jews-ie those who go every Shabbos to synagogue that buy lulav and esrog-they’ll drive on Shabbos but buy lulav and esrog-since the COnservative movement seems to have relatively few who attend every Shabbos the numbers aren’t there today for that.

  54. Nachum,

    I agree. Techeles is one example. In most cases, though, I believe one should adhere to trasdition. Or to put it another way, one’s default position should be to trust one’s community’s minhagim and traditions and live according to them without investigating each issue for oneself.

  55. Baruch: Certainly, I agree. But note that usually the new chumrot are *against* what was traditionally done. And I can think of good reasons to do something new: if our common sense pushes us, if there are new discoveries, or if (as in Gil’s case) we simply can’t do it the old way and there’s another, and perhaps better, way.

  56. Gil – Ive re-listened to the audio shiur and it certainly is the case that he provides a different prescription as to how much should be eaten. I presume ‘tfos lashon acharon’ would be the general rule, although it dismays me that he has retreated from his earlier daringness in challenging the yeshivishe consensus.

  57. In my family, when we got to the age of understanding (mid ‘70s), my father would intentionally distribute different nuschaot of the Haggada at our sedarim. This was a brilliant pedagogical device not just for discussion, but also for awareness.

    Perhaps one of the ways in which Israel really is “Reishit Tzmichat Ge’ulatainu” is by reminding us that through our differences we are one through the beauty of our diversity.

    My simple view is that we should honor the memory of our ancestors by finding ways to include their minhagim into our own, but not slavishly. Rear-view mirrors are important, but we drive mostly looking through the front windshield: le’Shana ha’Ba’a be’Yerushalayim.

    Chag Sameach.

  58. Mycroft commented:

    ““or of a continuous nature, thereby insuring that no matter how one defines the shiur, the optimal way of fulfilling the Mitzvah Min HaTorah is to keep on eating Matzah throughout the meal”

    achilas gasa?”

    The Netziv compares Achilas Matzah with eating a fruit. Just as one keeps the flavor of a fruit in one’s mouth and mind, so Achilas Matzah.

  59. Mycroft wrote in part:

    “I accept that-but it doesn’t change the fact that it was just not seen as essential to have ones own-one is perfectly Yotzeh the mitzvah on matanah al minas lehachzir”

    Even and especially on the first day of Sukkos that comes out on a weekday? IIRC, there is a serious Machlokes HaRishonim on that issue, as to whether one fullfills the Torah dictate of “Lachem.” Furthermore, IMO, it can be maintained that by buying and having one’s own Arbah Minim,and one is demonstrating Ahavas HaShem far more than relying on Matanah Al Minas LHachzir. WADR, I don’t see the comparison to Talis Gadol, where IIRC, the basis for single men not to wear a Talis, except for an Aliyah LaTorah or as a Shliach Tzibur, is rooted in the Smichas HaParshiyos of Tzitizis and Ki Yikach Ishah.

  60. Mycroft wrote:

    ” Just as most single people today do not own their own taalis for the times they will be a shaliach zibbur, baal koreh, get an aliyah etc the accepted practice was notto have ones own”

    Proof please? IIRC, the Mishnah in Sukkah discusses the minimum age for Chinuch with respect to Arbah Minim, from which the Rishonim underscore that every mitzvah has its own age of Chinuch. The fact that some communities relied on Arbah Minim that were owned by the community does not mean or imply that the same were a Kiyum in a Mitzvas Aseh of a Mitzvah Min HaTorah on a Lchatchilah level.

  61. Just as most single people today do not own their own taalis for the times they will be a shaliach zibbur, baal koreh, get an aliyah etc the accepted practice was notto have ones own”

    “Proof please? IIRC, the Mishnah in Sukkah discusses the minimum age for Chinuch with respect to Arbah Minim, from which the Rishonim underscore that every mitzvah has its own age of Chinuch. The fact that some communities relied on Arbah Minim that were owned by the community does not mean or imply that the same were a Kiyum in a Mitzvas Aseh of a Mitzvah Min HaTorah on a Lchatchilah level”

    Some communities-it was generally accepted as can be shown by looking at what people did and what the gdolim accepted. Do you dsipute my recollections which were for various communities in at least parts ofthe 50s, 60s, and 70s.
    Living in EY is certainly desireable-does that mean that it has not been accepted /tolerated that one can live in CHutz laaretz.

  62. J: I remember when I was in yeshiva some 15-20 years ago that R. Willig said that you can either eat two ke-zaysim or double the shiur but you need not do both.

  63. Yes, but in the audio shiur, unless I am misunderstanding him, he suggests that one doesn’t need to do either, because by eating one kezayis (i.e. 2/5 of a machine matza) one has already eaten many more than two kezeisim of an olive size kezayis. According to the article, however, one should eat 4/5 of a matzo.

  64. Mycroft wrote:

    ” Some communities-it was generally accepted as can be shown by looking at what people did and what the gdolim accepted.Do you dsipute my recollections which were for various communities in at least parts ofthe 50s, 60s, and 70s

    Let’s look at each part of this post. Which Gdolim accepted which practice and whether the same was accepted on a communal level as Lchatchilah or Bdieved? WADR, Puk Chazi Mah Amah Davar is only one aspect of determining whether any practice is Lchatchilah or Bdieved.

  65. >I hate to sound like a broken record but the past thing to use for maror is what your grandparents used.

    Why isn’t it better to actually use real maror? Shouldn’t we try to use one of the 5 types the mishna lists as valid – especially since it was historical contingency and not any particular religious requirement that led to the adoption of horseradish as “maror.”

    We ain’t living in Poland no more and we have access to lettuce!

    Further, there is such a thing as a minhag ta’ut – this is a prime example. To quote RHS’s teshuva regarding soft matza, there is no halachic issue of shinui minhag in these matters any more than there is an issue of shinui minhag in changing the color of the parochet from blue to red.

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