Hallel On Yom Yerushalayim: To Say Or Not To Say?

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My article in last week’s Yom Yerushalayim supplement in The Jewish Press:

Sometimes, it’s brief and simple statements that best capture man’s deepest aspirations. What Neil Armstrong’s memorable words after landing on the moon said about human progress, Col. Motta Gur’s three words on army communications on 28 Iyar 5727, “Har HaBayit b’yadeinu — The Temple Mount is ours,” said about spiritual achievement. They declared the fulfillment of nearly 2,000 years of prayer and the vindication of an even older biblical worldview.

How does a religion filled with ritual react to such a stunning event as the Six-Day War? How do we Jews respond to a lightning-fast reversal from near defeat to victory, from fearing the end of our presence in the land of Israel to rejoicing over the newly enlarged country, including the Old City of Jerusalem?

This sounds like an old question. Surely our nation has previously experienced military victories of the few over the many in recovery of our holy places from those who defiled them. Is the Six-Day War, then, not simply a modern-day Chanukah? Pure Jewish instinct tells us we should celebrate the day with songs of praise to God; we should recite Hallel.

Of course, anti-Zionists view the conquest of Jerusalem by predominantly irreligious Jews in an unredeemed world, not as a victory, but as a tragedy worth mourning. Chief among them is the Satmar Rav (1887-1979), who in the wake of the euphoria following the Six-Day War penned a harsh anti-Zionist treatise titled Al HaGeulah VeAl HaTemurah.

Yet, those of us who see the victory as a Divine gift , not a tragedy, face the halachic question of how to respond to it.

The first issue to address is whether Israel’s victory in the Six-Day War even qualifies as a miracle that would merit the recitation of Hallel. Judaism generally distinguishes between an evident, or supernatural, miracle (nes nigleh) and a hidden, or “natural,” miracle (nes nistar). The Maharatz Chayes writes that we only recite Hallel in response to a supernatural miracle. As proof, he notes that when explaining why we recite Hallel on Chanukah, the Gemara (Shabbos 22b) mentions only the evident miracle of the oil burning eight days, not the hidden miracle of the Jews defeating the Greeks in battle.

Rav Moshe Tzvi Neriah, however, rejects Maharatz Chayes’s position because we recite the blessing “She’asah nissim — Who performed miracles” on Purim even though the miracle we celebrate on that holiday was hidden. Clearly, such a stunning hidden miracle as the one celebrated on Purim is also considered worthy of ongoing commemoration.

Furthermore, the Gemara (Pesachim 117a) tells us that the prophets instituted the recitation of Hallel whenever we are redeemed from misfortune. Nowhere, Rav Neriah points out, does the Gemara require a miracle for Hallel to be recited.

Similarly, the Gemara (Megillah 14a) states that the only obligation the prophets added to the laws of the Torah was the reading of Megillah on Purim. The Gemara objects that this law is not an addition because it can be logically derived from the Torah itself: If, after being redeemed from slavery in Egypt, the Jews praised God, surely they should do so after being delivered from certain death! These statements in the Gemara presumably create a biblical obligation to recite Hallel to commemorate the salvation we experienced during of the Six-Day War.

Some suggest, however, that this obligation only applies to the time a miracle occurs. Hence, saying Hallel was appropriate in 1967 — just like he Jews said Hallel immediately after they left Egypt — but not today. Rav Shaul Yisraeli, though, disputes this view, suggesting that the Hallel we recite on Pesach every year commemorates the Exodus. Hence, we too must praise God every year for the miraculous victory of the Six-Day War.

Another possible reason for not saying Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim revolves around the opinion of Rabbeinu Tam, who rules that we only recite Hallel for miracles that saved the entire Jewish people. Since most Jews lived outside of Israel in 1967, Rabbeinu Tam’s position argues against saying Hallel.

But Rav Shlomo Goren demurs, stating that even Rabbeinu Tam would support the recitation of Hallel. He draws attention to the obligation of ripping one’s garments in mourning if a majority of Jews are defeated in battle. The Meiri contends that this obligation refers to the majority of Jews in the country engaged in battle. If the defeat of such a group leads to an obligation to mourn, argues Rav Goren, then the victory of a similar group is surely enough to engender an obligation to celebrate. Additionally, there is a rule that only Jews who live in the land of Israel are considered part of the “congregation of Jews.” (Both the Minchas Yitzchak and Rav Ovadiah Yosef dispute this latter point, arguing that this rule only applies to a specific area of halacha.)

Yet, something should still bother us: the reality on the ground. Even if we believe we are currently witnessing the beginning of the great redemption promised by the prophets — as many great rabbis do — the unfortunate fact is that the salvation is still far from complete. The military security of the State of Israel has not yet reached the level prophesied by Yishayahu and the spiritual state of the Jewish people seems even farther from its Messianic ideal. Indeed, for this reason Rav Yosef contends that one need not recite Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim (although he still advocates some form of praise for the salvation we experienced). Rav Yisraeli, however, disagrees, and maintains that one must recite Hallel despite the Jewish people’s less than ideal physical and spiritual state.

While we have overturned only some of the stones in this boundless discussion of Torah, space limitations require that we end here and simply note that some recite Hallel with a blessing on Yom Yerushalayim, some recite it without a blessing, and some do not recite it at all. All practices are advocated by different great authorities, and each river should follow its own proverbial course.

More discussion on the overlapping subjects of reciting Hallel on Yom Ha’atzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim can be found in R. Shlomo Goren, “Yom Ha’atzamaut Be’or Ha’halachah” in Toras Ha’moadim; R. Moshe Tzvi Neriah, “Eimasai Korin Es Ha’hallel” in Hilkhos Yom Ha’atzmaut Ve’yom Yerushalayim; R. Ralph Pelcovitz and R. Solomon Rybak, “Reciting the Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut” in The Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society Spring 1984; R. Meshulam Rothe, Kol Mevaser 1:21; R. Hershel Schachter, Nefesh HaRav pp. 94-96; R. Ahron Soloveichik, Logic of the Heart, Logic of the Mind, part 2 ch. 8; R. Moshe Tzuriel, “Yom Yerushalayim Va’amiras Hallel” on Yeshiva.org.il; R. Yitzchak Weiss, Minchas Yitzchak 10:10; R. Shaul Yisraeli, Eretz Chemdah (2nd edition), addenda to sec. 1 ch. 4; and R. Ovadiah Yosef, Yabia Omer 6:OC:41.

Contained here: link (PDF)

About Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the Editor of TorahMusings.com, a leading website on Orthodox Jewish scholarly subjects, and the Book Editor of the Orthodox Union’s Jewish Action magazine. He writes a popular column on issues of Jewish law and thought featured in newspapers and magazines, including The Jewish Link, The Jewish Echo and The Vues. In the past, he has served as the President of the small Jewish publisher Yashar Books and as the Managing Editor of OU Press. Rabbi Student has served two terms on the Executive Committee of the Rabbinical Council of America and currently serves as the Director of the Halacha Commission of the Rabbinical Alliance of America. He serves on the Editorial Boards of Jewish Action magazine, the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society and the Achieve Journal of Behavioral Health, Religion & Community, as well as the Board of OU Press. He has published five English books, the most recent titled Search Engine volume 2: Finding Meaning in Jewish Texts -- Jewish Leadership, and served as the American editor for Morasha Kehillat Yaakov: Essays in Honour of Chief Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks.

One comment

  1. Baruch 05/11/2010 10:24 PM
    Part two of that supplement is here: http://www.jewishpress.com/uploadedimages/stdimage/Yom...
    Nachum 05/12/2010 02:26 AM
    I have to be honest, having seen the way in which Israelis just naturally accept religious celebration (including Hallel) on Yom HaAtzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim- really, there’s just no debate here, people (Religious Zionists, of course) just do it- I find the agonizing coming from Chu’l over these issues somewhat off putting. YU’s recent “Torah to Go” on Yom HaAtzmaut seemed preoccupied with the legitimacy of celebrating the day rather than discussing the day, the land, and so on. Ah well. Maybe it’s a matter of being a Religious Zionist outside of Israel, I don’t know. But I’d *really* like to see an end to all the breast beating and people just doing the Jewish thing and celebrating and thanking God.
    Arie Folger 05/12/2010 02:45 AM
    Indeed, it is hard not to come to the conclusion, in EY, that the recitation of Hallel on those two national holidays is not seen as a halakhic matter, but as reflective of which camp one is in. As religious people, with a loooong tradition, we should agonize for a couple of decades before the dust settles.

    Some people actually wonder, I believe legitimately so, whether the rituals are *for* *some*, more a religious embellishment of the State, rather than a genuine expression of the religious dimension of the day.
    For those who see the day in particularly religious terms, it behooves us to prevent a misunderstanding of these days and their rituals. As R’ Josh Flug finished his article in YU’s Yom haAtzmaut To Go, whether or not one says Hallel is a halakhic issue, not a political issue. In my experience, many people don’t understand the distinction and do it out of political identification, so the agonizing you criticize is well placed.
    Yoni Ross 05/12/2010 03:18 AM
    A few points which I haven’t seen discussed:

    The Gemara in Pesachim 117a states that it was instituted that Hallel be recited for each trouble which befalls us, and once redeemed, it is said on the redemption. The original Hebrew is strangely constructed if it is supposed to mean that we should repeat Hallel on the anniversary of the redemption. Even if such an interpretation could somehow be teased out of these words, it begs the question of why Hallel is not also said on the anniversary of the troubles.

    Related to the above, the Gemara seems to be discussing who said Hallel, not who says it (i.e., it’s a historical issue, not one of going-forward halachic policy). The opinion of the Chachamim is what is often used (out of context, in my opinion) to demonstrate who should say Hallel. But taken in context, the oft-cited opinion of the Chachamim is directed towards historical facts. As a side point, most of the examples given of times when we were redeemed and thus said Hallel are no longer observed; Purim is given as an example – it is observed, but Hallel is not said. Further evidence that this is a historical, and not a halachic policy, discussion.

    No one says Hallel on the day the war ended; they say it on the day Yerushalayim was captured, which was only the third day of the war. Hardly a geulah, since the war continued for three more days. Same point, mutatis mutandis, applies to Yom Ha’atzmaut (it’s especially ironic when YH is pushed off a day, and Hallel is said on the anniversary of the day we were attacked!). I’m also not aware of any suggestion that we should say Hallel on the anniversary of the conclusion of any other of Israel’s wars.
    Yosef 05/12/2010 04:12 AM
    For those who want to say Al HaNissim (even if not within the shmone esre or birkath hmazaon) here is a beautiful nusach by Rabbi David Bar-Hayim:

    Nachum 05/12/2010 04:25 AM in reply to Arie Folger
    “for a couple of decades”

    It’s been over sixty years since Israel became independent, and over forty since the Six-Day War. Is that enough?

    “genuine expression of the religious dimension of the day”

    The Jewish people are not just some religion; we are a nation as well. Hence, what affects the State *is* of religious significance.

    “or not one says Hallel is a halakhic issue, not a political issue”

    What’s so wrong with politics? Again, politics in a Jewish state *is* related to Judaism, one way or another.

    Ay, I can’t believe I’m being sucked into this argument. The people of Israel, led by their halakhic authorities, decided this was big enough to say Hallel over. I’m sorry to say this, but anything else is either a lack of identification with certain things, excessive navel-gazing, or both.

    Happy Yom Yerushalayim, and thank YOU, Hashem! What a wonderful gift we’ve been given!
    Shlomo 05/12/2010 04:34 AM in reply to Nachum
    2 people liked this.
    All kinds of things are “natural” in the dati leumi community, but that does not mean they should be uncritically accepted. Just as it is natural for Chabadniks to say “yechi” at the end of each prayer, because it is so obvious and significant to them that the Rebbe is the messiah, similarly it is natural for the dati leumi community to create new prayer representing their own messianism. It is natural for them to sing lecha dodi, blow a shofar, and say hashem hu haelokim and leshana habaah and kiddush hachodesh and hallel in the Yom Haatzmaut prayer service. The implication is that Yom Haatzmaut is equal in significance to Shabbat, Rosh Hodesh, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur, and Pesach put together. Based on sources from R’ Kook which they misunderstand, they effectively worship a trinity of God, the Jewish people, and the land of Israel. This attitude is “cute” when it leads to a couple of new songs in the Yom Haatzmaut prayers, but not when it leads to widespread racism and contempt for non-Jews, or when it causes events like the “disengagement” to become crises of faith for those who see their three gods have turned on and now contradict each other.
    joelrich 05/12/2010 05:22 AM
    As R’ Josh Flug finished his article in YU’s Yom haAtzmaut To Go, whether or not one says Hallel is a halakhic issue, not a political issue.
    Interesting, I’d guess that the correlation coefficient is much higher with the political views (read view of zionism/state) than with the “pure” halachic analysis when seen in the context of other non-political decisions (i.e. if you built an AI machine based on all their non-political decisions and asked it toextrapolate)
    joelrich 05/12/2010 05:26 AM
    Based on sources from R’ Kook which they misunderstand, they effectively worship a trinity of God, the Jewish people, and the land of Israel. This attitude is “cute” when it leads to a couple of new songs
    wadr this is imho an overreach (and an unnecessary slap). That they view the Jewish people in the land of Israel worshipping HKB”H as an ideal doesn’t seem like much of a stretch.
    Shlomo 05/12/2010 05:37 AM in reply to Yoni Ross
    Looking at Wikipedia, it seems that the conquests of Sinai and the West Bank were basically finished in the first three days of the war.
    Nosson Gestetner 05/12/2010 06:38 AM
    Random/related joke/true story. The Rosh Yeshivah of Ponevizh was aked whether to sat Tachanun or Hallel on Yom Hatzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim. The RY looked up and said “I’m like ben Gurion – I say neither!”
    Nosson Gestetner 05/12/2010 06:39 AM in reply to joelrich
    That trinity remark is hilarious! 🙂
    JXG 05/12/2010 07:59 AM in reply to Yoni Ross
    I’m going to have to disagree somewhat here. Setting aside Yom Ha`atzma’ut and Yom Yerushalayim: in the case of both Chanuka and Purim, we do not observe the holidays on the day of the miracle.

    Rather, Purim is observed on the anniversary of the celebration and gratitude (actually, two days of celebration). Under certain circumstances including the day of the week vs. month, the Megilla reading (but not the Purim celebration) can be on or before the day of the miracle also.

    Chanuka is the anniversary of the rededication of the Beit Hamikdash, rather than any battle or set of battles. There were scattered fights with the Seleucid forces continuing for years afterward, IIRC.
    Nachum 05/12/2010 08:37 AM in reply to Nosson Gestetner
    Comment removed.
    Shlomo 05/12/2010 08:56 AM in reply to Nachum
    1 person liked this.
    Nachum: “That whole post of Shlomo’s was ugly and disgusting. ”

    Please, tell me what is wrong with it, not just that you don’t like it. It reflects what I see on a day-to-day basis. Granted, my current community is worse than most. But I’m not sure the problem can be solved until it is recognized in its pure form.

    joelrich: “wadr this is imho an overreach (and an unnecessary slap). That they view the Jewish people in the land of Israel worshipping HKB”H as an ideal doesn’t seem like much of a stretch.”

    Everyone views the Jewish people in the land of Israel worshipping HKB”H as an ideal. Even Neturei Karta. The problems come when your religious worldview centers around the people/land just as much as on HKB”H. When you declare that your first loyal is to the Jewish people not to God. When you think that right-wing secular people are automatically holy, but rabbis who agree to territorial compromise are not.
    Shua Cohen 05/12/2010 11:31 AM
    “Har HaBayit b’yadeinu…declared the fulfillment of nearly 2,000 years of prayer and the vindication of an even older biblical worldview.”

    And Rabbi Shlomo Goren’s blowing of the shofar at the Kotel on 28 Iyar fulfilled the 10th bracha of the Shemoneh Esrei (Kibbutz Goliyus): “T’kah b’shofar gadol l’cheirusainu.”

    The Ribbono Shel Olam called bnei Torah from the Diaspora to return to Eretz Yisrael, and yet they still dwell complacently in their comfortable golus, demonstrating their determination to do nothing of the sort. A talmid muvhak of HaRav Yitzchok Hutner, zt”l, related to me 25 years ago his belief that this is the ultimate tragedy of our generation…that bnei Torah are not heeding the call to make Aliyah en masse. Currently, Orthodox communities are suffering from the consequences of this obstinacy: grave troubles are afflicting those communities from both within and without, and will only increase until (as Rav Shalom Arush, shlit”a, recently opined) “those who don’t come to Israel while they still can may be lucky to escape from the USA with a plastic bag and a pair of pajamas.”
    J. 05/12/2010 01:13 PM
    As far as I am aware, the story about Ben Gurion and Hallel was about Yom Ha’atzmaut and the Ponevezher Rav.
    I don’t think in can be disputed that there have been RZ Rabbis who have expressed outrageous attitudes towards nachriim; whether or not it is a natural consequence of their hashkafa is another matter. I won’t put names to the following illustrative quotes, but they were said by rabbis of high standing in large parts of the RZ world:
    On the ‘price-tag’ policy of attacking Arabs –
    “התברר שמדיניות ‘תג המחיר’ יעילה ביותר, ומערכת ‘הביטחון’ עושה הכול כדי לשוברה לשם כך הם מפיצים עלילות על המתנחלים… ראשי הצבא שנכשלו בניהול המלחמה נגד האויב הערבי, יחד עם ראשי המשטרה שנכשלו בהשלטת ביטחון ברחבי הארץ, נעשו גיבורים כלפי יהודים יקרים, שמקום מגוריהם לא הוסדר רשמית רק בגלל שיקולים פוליטיים. לכן צריך עתה לדבר בשבחם של נערי הגבעות היקרים, שמוסרים עצמם למען יישוב הארץ והפרחת השממה”‏‏
    On Baruch Goldstein –
    ו”דווקא בגלל ×–×” הוא ×”×™×” צריך לבקש רשות מהאומה, ×›×™ אחר כך מי שיצטרך לקחת את המעמסה של האחריות זו האומה כולה. אם הוא ×”×™×” שואל אותנו היינו אומרים לו לא לעשות את ×–×”. ×›×›×” לא פועלים. אבל הוא לא שאל אותנו. והוא נהרג. הרי הוא ידע שמה שהוא עושה ×–×” מסוכן, לכן ודאי שהוא זכר צדיק לברכה, זכר קדוש לברכה, אבל המעשה ×”×™×” מעשה לא נכון”.
    I don’t think it’s fair to besmirch an entire tzibbur based on such things (especially as there are a majority of Rabbonim in that sector who are probably as horrified as I am that such things could be said by people regarded as spiritual leaders), but there is definitely something deeply wrong if these rabbis could make comments like this and get away with it.
    David Tzohar 05/12/2010 02:14 PM in reply to Yoni Ross
    I agree that 5 Iyar is a problematic day for yom atzmaut since it was the beginning of the war and nobody knew how it would turn out. Rav Aviner said that the miracle was that Hashem gave Ben-Gurion and the provisional government the courage to declare the state against all the odds. There is no such problem with 28 Iyar. On 25 kislev the war of the Hashmonaim was far from over but Chazal decided that we should say Hallel on that date. The victory in Yerushalayim was the turning point in the Six Day War. After the Jordanians were routed and fled back to Jordan the war was over. Afterwards Dayan decided to use the initiative to take the Golan. This was hatzala mimavet lechaim for the whole Jewiswh population in Eretz Yisrael.To me our halachic and moral obligation to say Hallel is clear not to do so would be kfiat tova klapay shmaya.
    Rav Goren ZTZL said that 28 Iyyar is the real yom atzmaut, that before the six day war and the conquest of Yehudah , Shomron and Yerushalayim it was not at all clear if the state of Israel was here to stay or just a passing episode like the Bar Cochba Rebellion. Rav Goren instituted saying Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim bebracha. I for one say it with kavvanah yeteira.
    Avraham_E 05/12/2010 02:50 PM
    Just to add a different angle: The Vilna Gaon in Kol HaTor says that 5 Iyar and 28 Iyar, because of the sefirot of those days of the omer, have specific qualities of geulah. It seems to be quite a stretch to say this is a coincidence.
    Anyone interested in an explanation and elaboration of this idea in R Ari Kahn’s shiur on YUTorah on the topic of Yom Yerushalayim here: http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/735
    Yoni Ross 05/12/2010 04:21 PM in reply to David Tzohar
    David – You stil haven’t addressed any of the points relating to the Gemara. In other words, where is the source (which predates the state) for saying Hallel on such days?
    A Joe Schmo 05/12/2010 04:49 PM in reply to Shlomo
    ” When you think that right-wing secular people are automatically holy, but rabbis who agree to territorial compromise are not.”

    What if I think that ‘right-wing secular people’ are automatically rational and sane, but rabbis (or anyone for that matter) who agree to territorial compromise with arab terrorist groups are not sane or rational. Does that mean I have also put “loyalty to the Jewish people” over God?

    To you, are the rabbis God?
    A Joe Schmo 05/12/2010 04:55 PM in reply to Yoni Ross
    Please tell me you are not suggesting that the gemara should have mentioned 5 iyar or 28 iyar.
    Steve Brizel 05/12/2010 06:23 PM
    Nachum-Unfortunately, there are far too many who simply don’t realize the immense importance of a sovereign Jewish state and the miracles of 1967. Every year around this time, I reread Ambassador Oren’s wonderful book to remind me of what Israel was facing in May 1967 and to appreciate the difference between pre June 1967 Israel which I visited for a month in 1966 as a pre Bar Mitzvah present with my uncle and grandmother, may they rest in peace. It serves to inspire my recitation of Hallel on both Yom HaAtzmaut and Yom Yerushalayim. I have always wondered how many of us under the age of 50 visited Israel pre 1967.
    MiMedinat HaYam 05/12/2010 06:41 PM
    1. the war started before 5 iyar. that was just the day it “formally” started, per the un resolution 18X.

    2. did rav kook say what you quote, or is it more the mizrachi (old term — is it in wikipedia?) term of “am yisrael, im torat yisrael,., be’midinat yisrael” (or did i get the order wrong?).

    3. i dont need wikipedia to tell methe war was basically over by the third day. the old city was only captured to preclude an enclave in the new reality. (thus, dayan giving the keys) only the syrian front remained. that was a 1-1/2 day affair, rushed to preclude a un ceasefire.

    4. some of “us” were involved pre 1948. dont forget, three of the “lamed he” kdoshim were yc / riets students. had they lived, they would be blogging with us, today, (though probably on the RKB / RHS issue.)
    Nachum 05/13/2010 01:51 AM in reply to Steve Brizel
    After Shacharit yesterday, we had a small kiddush. (Cookies and schnapps.) One older mitpallel started talking about the open miracles they experienced back then. Our gabbai, bless him, said “I was in the army then. Two-three weeks before the war…we weren’t that worried.”

    I’ll admit I may have missed a nuance of his speech. But it was still incredible to be standing next to him on the morning of Yom Yerushalayim.
    moshe123 05/13/2010 02:10 AM
    As someone who lives in Israel and would like to celebrate Yom Yerushalayim by giving thanks to Hakadosh Baruch Hu for all of the miracles he preformed, I am put off more and more every year by how Y”Y is becoming a “worship the State day”.

    I will only give one example: What would Jews interested in giving thanks to HKB”H do at the kotel on this special day? Daven, give thanks, say divrei Torah etc.. Instead, what is done? Rikudgalim – Danicing with the [holy -ed.] flag of Israel. Huge speakers are put up and a massive concert/flag dancing ceremony goes on. Instead of thanking HKB”H, they worship the flag – while disturbing mitpallelim at the Kotel (in the actual Kotel plaza – not simply next door). This is not done by the chilonim – they simply ignore the day as they have for some time now. It is sad that from a day of hallel and hodaa it has become a day of nationalism and making the state ‘holy’.
    Shlomo 05/13/2010 02:37 AM in reply to A Joe Schmo
    I meant what I said. I didn’t mean what you say I said.
    Yoni Ross 05/13/2010 04:58 AM in reply to A Joe Schmo
    I am not. I just don’t see how that particular Gemara can serve as a basis for saying Hallel annually for those dates.

    (I mentioned Purim as an indication that the Gemara is dealing with one-time, not annual, recitations of Hallel.)
    Nachum 05/13/2010 04:59 AM in reply to moshe123
    1 person liked this.
    Moshe, I can guarantee you that every one of those kids dancing with a flag said Hallel that morning, and knows full well Who to thank.

    And people were “disturbed” at the Kotel at eight o’clock at night, one day a year? Come on, you can do better than that.

    Really, the cynicism of some blog commenters is beyond me.
    David Tzohar 05/13/2010 08:42 AM in reply to Shlomo
    1 person liked this.
    Your “trinity” comment is not only insulting but shows a complete Am ha-artzut in the works of HaRav Kook ZTZL. I suggest that you learn not only the original works of Harav which are admittedly quite difficult to master ( Isay this as someone who has spent much of the last 15 years trying to do that) but also the works of his talmidim:R’ Tzvi Yehuda, R’ Charlap, R’ Zeivin , all ZTZL, and their talmidim R’ Aviner, R’ Ariel, R’ Tau all SHLITA ( to name a few). Your political comments are totally irrelevant/
    BTW who did you have in mind as someone who” declared that his first loyalty is to the Jewish people not to God” ? To me it sounds like hotza’at diba v’lashon hara al tzibbur shalem.
    A Joe Schmo 05/13/2010 05:56 PM in reply to Shlomo
    I didn’t say you said anything; I asked a question.
    Mair Zvi 05/13/2010 10:07 PM
    In view of the current “indirect peace talks” that are now supposedly taking place, in which the division of Yerushalayim is up for debate, perhaps it is more fitting that we recite only Half Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim.
    Which half of Hallel , you ask, should we recite? The Western half, of course!
    David Tzohar 05/14/2010 07:04 AM in reply to moshe123
    1 person liked this.
    All 6 of my children have been in the rikuedgalim and I myself participated many times/ The climax is the tefilla at the kotel. To say that anyone “worships the flag ‘is charedispeak drivel, and I am not saying this from middat ha kaas but froma a need to defend the honor of tzibbur shalem v’rabbaneha ha kedoshim. The flag is just a piece of cloth but it represents the concrete expression of atchalta d’geula.
    BTW nationalism is not a sin when you are talking about the Jewish Nation.
    David Tzohar 05/14/2010 07:26 AM in reply to A Joe Schmo
    28 Iyyar isn’t mentioned in the gemara.It was mentioned by the GRAof Vilna bruach kodsho as yom mesugal l’yeshuot. It is the yahrtzeit of Shmuel hanavi who said “netzach Yisrael lo Yeshaker. The conquest of Yerushalayim links us to the netzach of mekom ha mikdash, the conquests of the Chashmonaim and David hamelech with the belief in the netzach of Mashiach ben David sheyavo bimhera beyameinu.

    david hamekech
    Shlomo 05/15/2010 05:21 PM in reply to A Joe Schmo
    No, I do not believe that rabbis are God.

    I used “rabbis” to represent people who are generally regarded as being successful in keeping and representing the ideals of the Torah. And it seems to me that often people with those qualities are dismissed or mocked, while any secular person who has done a lot “for eretz yisrael” is revered.
    Shlomo 05/15/2010 05:34 PM in reply to David Tzohar
    Your “trinity” comment is not only insulting but shows a complete Am ha-artzut in the works of HaRav Kook ZTZL.

    I was not accusing R’ Kook of anything. I explicitly said that this attitude, apparent in his FOLLOWERS not him, was based on a MISUNDERSTANDING of his works. I have not read much of his students, but I hope they do not take the attitude I’m talking about.

    BTW who did you have in mind as someone who” declared that his first loyalty is to the Jewish people not to God” ? To me it sounds like hotza’at diba v’lashon hara al tzibbur shalem.

    One person who “declared that his first loyalty is to the Jewish people not to God” was R’ Eliyahu Zini, head of the Haifa hesder yeshiva. I was at a shiur of his in which he went over an essay by RYBS (does anyone know which one? I think it was related to Pesach somehow) which quoted a midrash to show that one’s first loyalty must be to God not the Jewish people. On this R’ Zini commented that RYBS only said that because he lived outside Israel, but if he lived in Israel, he would have said the opposite.

    I saw a similar approach from the opposite side of the political spectrum, in the Tzohar parsha sheet (http://www.tzohar.org.il/tzhoarlshabat.asp), roughly a couple months back. The essay referred to Moshe’s response to chet haegel. Unfortunately I do not remember more details.

    This is not dibah since it is true, and not lashon hara since it is letoelet.
    David Tzohar 05/16/2010 08:25 AM in reply to Shlomo
    1-It’s too bad that we didnt hear all of R’ Zinni’s shiur in order to determine whether or not you quoted him in context.
    2-The fact that Rabbanei Tzohar, on the other end of the political spectrum agree wit R’ Zinni proves how far off base you are in your misunderstanding of Torat HaRav Kook ZTZL and his disciples all of whom say that Torat yisrael , l’am yisrael, b’eretz yisrael is one of the basic tenets of hashkafat Ha Rav.
    3-FTR I have no connection to “Rabbanei Tzohar”
    4- See Orot 160:7 Where HaRav Says “Medinat Yisrael is the base of the throne of Hashem in the world and even though it is not now the lofty (ideal) state and will require much refining in order to shine it’s light in these dark times, this is no reason for us not to call it our chief joy.”
    5- what you wrote is diba because it is patently false
    6- It is lashon hara without toelet since none of those you talk about will accept tochecha from you..
    A Joe Schmo 05/16/2010 08:43 AM in reply to Shlomo
    Interesting. Well, as Rabbi Kahane ZT”L always said, regarding people who have the same or some of the same deot, it does not mean they are necessarily on the same side. There are also middot to consider. And someone can arrive at the same deot with having the correct or proper middot and it can be for naught in the end. Thus he also used to say to his talmidim, “We have more in common with the Satmar Rav than we do with Sharon.” These things are important to keep in mind for those people who stand strongly against national treason, and it seems now that you meant something along these lines – if so I have to agree.
    A Joe Schmo 05/16/2010 08:44 AM in reply to A Joe Schmo
    “And someone can arrive at the same deot with having the correct or proper middot and it can be for naught in the end. ”

    Should have said “And someone can arrive at the same deot WITHOUT having the correct or proper middot and it can be for naught in the end. ”
    Shlomo 05/16/2010 03:43 PM in reply to David Tzohar
    4 – R’ Kook said flowery lines like that about EVERYTHING. He assigned value to all worldly developments, and you are picking and choosing the ones you want to focus on, and ignoring the others. This is wrong not only because it gives a distorted picture of what held R’ Kook’s attention, but because it means developing a fragmented rather than uniform worldview and thus undermines one of the most deep and central ideas of his philosophy.
    5 – It’s not false. I gave examples.
    6 – It is letoelet, just like protesting Chabad messianism can be letoelet even when the messianics are not swayed.
    A Joe Schmo 05/17/2010 10:47 AM in reply to A Joe Schmo
    Also, not sure how I got on the discussion of national treason, but I must have thought I was in another thread (or different blog) where that subject was up. What I meant to say was that for anyone who identifies with the achievements of secular Jewish fighters and assigns spiritual significance to the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in our homeland (as one well should IMO) – it is still important to keep in mind who our allies really are in the end in the big picture.

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