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Shoveling on Shabbos
J Katz: Leaving the Ghetto
R D Landes: Israel’s Religious Zionist Vs. Ultra-Orthodox Rift
Court orders Google to identify anti-Halpern bloggers
IDF Keeps Promises – or Hareidi Soldiers Leave
DOJ Seeks Life for Beard-Shearing Mullet
Orthodox Rabbi Defends Jewish Psychiatrist Who Sexually Assaulted Patients
In Victory for ‘Chained’ Wives, Court Upholds Orthodox Prenuptial Agreement
An open letter to Harriet Sherwood, by R. Yakov Nagen
Woodmere F.D. installs first Orthodox Chief
Who Is The Hebrew Girl Murderer of East New York?
Crisis ‘worse than JFS’ looms
Rabbi’s iPad amp wins reality show funding
Court Rules Against Moshe Aryeh Friedman Who Forced His Sons To Go To Girls Yeshiva
SALT Friday

R Broyde: Žižek, ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ and Torture
Why hasn’t the Orthodox egalitarian ‘synagogue revolution’ taken hold in America?
Wrapping It Up
The 21st-Century Rabbi
Ask the Rabbi: May women deliver eulogies?
Review of Aloh Na’aleh
R Lamm: Reflections on the Divine Image
Conservatives End Push to Convert Intermarrieds
Convert Snub By Israel Fuels Fresh Angere
R Blech: Ed Koch’s Tombstone
SALT Thursday

Flavius Josephus, the Roman Who Was Torn Between His Jewish Identity and Ambition
Eruv: The (Nearly) Invisible Borders That Define Religious Jewish Life
Dressing for the Bitter Cold, but Still Observing the Sabbath
The New York Jewish Museum You’ve Never Been To
Natan Sharansky Mediates Jerusalem’s Western Wall Dispute
Get Ready For Jewish iSpirituality
Repair the World’s New CEO David Eisner Boosts Volunteer Funding
Dazzling Torah Bells Spark Legal Battle for Touro Synagogue and Shearith Israel
Denominational Delusions
Jews vocal on both sides of France’s gay marriage debate
For the people: Defining the rabbi’s role
SALT Wednesday

Eat This Endangered Species: A Rabbi’s Quest to Save a Near-Extinct Kosher Partridge
A Mechitza Runs Through It: More Egalitarian Orthodox Prayer
The Halakhah of Selling Arms
In Westhampton Beach, a Ritual Jewish Boundary Stirs Real Town Divisions
Censoring the Language of Sexual Abuse
How to Save a Dying Language
Orthodox Jewish Groups Exploit E-Rate Library Subsidy Program
SALT Tuesday

Redemption of the First Shorn
300-Year-Old Synagogue Comes Back to Life
J Brown: An Old Dog’s New Tricks
Brooklyn cantorial concert a milestone for new Barclays Center
For California mountain man, road to God runs through kosher wine
NY paper sees new market among Hasidim
Orthodox woman firefighter volunteers in Israel
Rav Ovadia: Women who Wear Talit Are Transgressors
R Y Schochet: Getting a Grip on Religious Sex Abuse
SALT Monday

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Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the founder, publisher and editor-in-chief of Torah Musings.

 
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237 Responses

  1. Chazzan says:

    Koch Tombstone

    Rabbi Gil, can you comment on halakhik status of being buried in non Jewish cemetery?

  2. joel rich says:

    FWIW I read elsewhere that it will be surrounded by a fence to distinguish it from the rest

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/nyregion/koch-was-proudly-jewish-but-on-his-own-terms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    KT

  3. Chazzan says:

    Yes, that is precicely my question. Is a fence enough of a separation?

  4. not this means anything, but i’ve never heard the term upsherinesh, but rather upsherin

    “practiced among Ashkenazi Jews mainly by Hasidim”

    of course this is no longer true.

  5. Shalom Rosenfeld says:

    There’s an Igros Moshe about a family wanting to bury a non-Jewish relative in a Jewish cemetery; he says the rabbi need not go to war against the family over this, as long as they can do either a mechitza or margins of 4 (better 8) amos.

  6. joel rich says:

    R’ Abba,
    it’s worse, now “they” are convinced that it was always the non-chassidic practice as well! (As I told someone, I don’t really care about doing it or not, but please don’t tell me they did it in Suvalk)
    KT

  7. S. says:

    Can’t confirm this to be true firsthand, but someone I consider reliable told me that even the EY Soloveitchiks do upsherin with their kids.

  8. Nachum says:

    Not only will there be a fence around the grave, but his rav told him that the nearest gate would need to be renamed “The Jews’ Gate”. And it was. I’ve never heard that before, but I’m not a posek. Apparently the cemetery is not religious anymore.

    I’ve never seen the big deal about non-Jews in Jewish cemeteries, but my Aaronic descent makes me indifferent about most related matters.

    Re: R’ Ovadiah. Bear in mind that according to him, women don’t say Shem U’Malchut in Birchat HaTorah. (Or SheAsani Kirtzono.) That’s his view; most don’t agree.

  9. Tal Benschar says:

    it’s worse, now “they” are convinced that it was always the non-chassidic practice as well! (As I told someone, I don’t really care about doing it or not, but please don’t tell me they did it in Suvalk)

    The thing is, when it comes to minhagim, America has become a melting pot. Just because someone is “yeshivish” in the sense that he sends his sons to learn in Lithuanian style yeshivos, does not mean his family minhag was not Chassidish. One would do well to remember that, pre-war, those with Chassidish leanings, such as much of Poland, greatly outnumbered the misnagdim. This is especially true among those areas, like Hungary, that tended to have more survivors.

    Also, when there is a blend and families have different minhagim, the trend is to give in to the side that feels most strongly about it. Take one small example — some families have a custom that at a wedding, the two fathers escort the chassan down to the chuppah, while the two mothers escort the kallah. Others have the custom that each set of parents escorts their own child. R. Yaakov Kamenetsky was once asked what his minhag was. He answered, “My minhag is to do whatever the mechutanim want. Half my children did it one way, the other half the other way.”

    The same dynamic, I am sure, happens in alot of families concerning upsherin. Someone I know told me they did not want to do it, but Bubbe was so upset, “that’s the way they did it in the alter heim,” and so who are they to take away Bubbe’s nachas? (Especially if Bubbe is a holocaust survivor or even a refugee from the war.)

  10. joel rich says:

    r’tb,
    We have the same minhag as R’ Yaakov :-)
    I was referring to cases where there is no family minhag on either side but “the community” does it – and I’m fine with that (just like I was fine with carrying candles at one of my sons’ weddings) I oblect to rewriting history rather than just saying we’d like to do it because we like it , or our community does it, or your grandma Tzietl, may she rest in peace came to you in a dream :-)
    KT

  11. S. says:

    Tal, in many cases we are talking about a revival of what may have been the ancestral custom, but hasn’t been performed for two or three generations. For example, I shtamm fun Chasidim on my father’s side, and I can reasonably assume that 120 years ago in Europe they did upshern. But probably my grandfather born in 1913 in New York did not have one, and my father born 30 years later certainly did not have one, and in fact I did not have one. This is how it is in many American families. So there is a perception of an encroachment of Chassidic minhagim, and in fact that may be the more direct source of its revival, even if it really was the family minhag. It seems to come from the side, not from the top. And of course there is a whole contingent who does it because it is cute, beginning and end.

  12. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Tal: And what if both sides feel strongly? Not so simple.

  13. Tal Benschar says:

    Tal: And what if both sides feel strongly?

    Then they fight about it, what else?

    I am not describing what should happen, only what does happen.

  14. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    The origins of upsherin are obscure and according to some reflect Muslim influence. Moreover, we have here just one more ceremony that applies to young males and thereby marginalizes young females. I have no problem with those for whom it is a family custom to perform an upshherin to continue their tradition, but for Modern Orthodox Jews for whom it is not a family custom to have an upsherin to adopt an alien custom becaeuse it is “cute” seems to me to indicate a lack of self-respect.

  15. joel rich says:

    R’LK,
    Why not propose an ear piercing ceremony for girls?

    “An interesting story is related in the book, HaTorah HaMisamachat (page 298), about the 13 year-old daughter of Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein. When she wanted to have her ears pierced, her father discouraged her, pointing out the serious prohibition of inflicting a wound on one’s body. The girl didn’t give in so easily and got him to agree to go together to the famed Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach to ask his opinion.

    The Rabbi received them in his house and told them that from time immemorial, it has been the accepted Jewish tradition that boys are circumcised and girls have their ears pierced. ”

    KT

  16. emma says:

    “Why not propose an ear piercing ceremony for girls?”

    How about a first haircut, eh? Does not have to be cut boy-short to be dramatic, and can still be cute afterwards. (Of course, since part of the point is (maybe) to make little boys look like undesirable little girls, the custom is more gendered than just creating a parallel for girls would indicate…)

    i hope your suggestion of instituting/encouraging very-young ear piercing is tongue in cheek…

  17. R. JOEL:

    interesting story in how it highlights the personalities of both RAL and his daugher.

    but i don’t understand RSZA’s response.

    (i asked a rav about earrings for my daughter (my wife wanted, i didn’t). he said no problem.

  18. my trajectory is similar to the one S. described above. no upshern in my family for a century (if there even was before that, possibly, even probably, but i have no idea for sure). yet the (chabad) rav of my shul thought i was kofer for “abandoning” what he referred to as the old “minhag ashkenaz.” but why should i do something–no halacha involved here–that hasn’t been done for a century, may or may not have been a done for a century or 2 or 3 before that, and then was never done previous to that?

  19. S:

    “And of course there is a whole contingent who does it because it is cute, beginning and end.”

    what is so cute about making a little boy look like a little girl? (now of course if my son had a cool ‘fro, or if long hair made him look more rugged or like a rock star . . .)

  20. IH says:

    Regarding burying non-Jewish relatives in a Jewish cemetery, there are several non-halachicly Jewish members of the Rothschild family buried in London’s Willesden United Synagogue Cemetery if memory serves.

  21. Hoffa Araujo says:

    “but for Modern Orthodox Jews for whom it is not a family custom to have an upsherin to adopt an alien custom becaeuse it is “cute” seems to me to indicate a lack of self-respect.”

    Most MO and Chareidim come from poilishe/hungarian/chassidishe roots so its not so far off. People don’t realized but Litvaks were almost wiped out during the Holocaust so very few left. German Jews do the wimple ceremony so they have something similar to upsherin.

  22. joel rich says:

    r’emma,
    tongue firmly in cheek but I chose it over haircut because I remembered r’sza reponse of ear piercing being from time immemorial!
    KT

  23. Tal Benschar says:

    ear piercing being from time immemorial

    How about NOSE piercing? That seems to have been a prevalent practice in both Tanach and Chazal (for women, that is).

  24. Hirhurim says:

    I couldn’t help noticing this morning that Matzav has a picture of Hillary Clinton but an extreme close-up of her eyes and nose. Is this a compromise over women’s pictures? I don’t like it.
    http://matzav.com/hillary-clinton-the-most-powerful-woman-in-american-politics

  25. Hirhurim says:

    On burying Jews and gentiles together, see this post: http://torahmusings.com/2011/02/community-burial/

  26. Shlomo says:

    (Of course, since part of the point is (maybe) to make little boys look like undesirable little girls, the custom is more gendered than just creating a parallel for girls would indicate…)

    In my limited experience, the point of the custom is that frummie women think it looks “adoooohrable” and therefore they insist on it…

  27. LongTimeReader says:

    I once asked Rabbi Willig about ear piercing (and other body piercing) and he had a story remarkably similar to R’ Lichtenstein’s. His daughter was pushing to get her ears pierced & he resisted because he thought it was assur. One day she came home from school & said that R’ Schachter’s daughter got her ears pierced, so Rabbi Willig relented.

  28. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: Re Hilary Clinton: Astute observation.

  29. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Aba: Plus there are reasons NOT to have an upsherin. Your Chabad rabbi sounds, you will pardon me, like an am haaretz. Minhag Ashkenaz, indeed!

  30. joel rich says:

    R’LK,
    Halachic or hashkafic reasons? I was dan lkaf zchut and assumed matzav thought she was having a bad hair day (like mine when I have tfillin depressions in my ‘do)
    KT

  31. GIL:

    i clicked on that link above. you wrote, ” If even wayward Jews are excluded from a Jewish community cemetery, then certainly Gentiles must be as well.”

    but today are wayward jews excluded?`

  32. Steve Brizel says:

    There is a wonderful Minhag that we saw the Shabbos before the Bris Milah of our grandson ( which was on Shabbos in Yerushalayim ). A number of families brought their children to our children’s apartment, and had them sing “HaMalaach HaGoel” and recite “Shma Yisrael”. FWIW, if one compares the Minhagim in EY and Chutz LaAretz re Bris Milah, one will see that the Bris Milah in EY is prefaced and followed by far more Psukim (including some chosen from the Prakim of Tehilim that compose Hallel).

  33. Steve Brizel says:

    Abba-I agree -the links to the Seforim Sale are nowwhere as informative or attractive to the potential buyer as in previous years.

  34. Nachum says:

    Steve, as a kid, we did this in New York too, albeit the night before. I’m surprised you hadn’t heard of it. To be honest, a lot of this is meant to ward off Lilith, whose origins are, ahem, suspect.

    A far more important, and halachic, difference between britot in the Israel and chu”l is that Shehecheyanu is said in Israel and not outside.

    Hoffa: Many, many Israeli and American Jews are of Lithuanian descent. They just got there before World War II. That’s why Ashkenaz is the nusach in “mainline” American shuls.

    With all the talk of ear-piercing: Chassidim are known to do it to baby girls.

  35. Steve Brizel says:

    Nachum-Thanks for helping me remember that Shehecheyanu was also recited!

  36. emma says:

    “Hoffa: Many, many Israeli and American Jews are of Lithuanian descent. They just got there before World War II. That’s why Ashkenaz is the nusach in “mainline” American shuls.”

    That’s me!

    “With all the talk of ear-piercing: Chassidim are known to do it to baby girls.”

    Not just chassidim, though perhaps they do it more. But I have to say I really dislike the practice, wherever it is found… Let them make their own choice…

  37. Steve Brizel says:

    For all would be grandparents on this blog-take it from me-there is nothing , except for a chasunah of a child ,that is comparable to being in the Beis Medrash where your son or SIL learns on a Shabbos in Yerushalayim for a Bris Milah of a grandson!

  38. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    regarding “making” a jewish cemetery, rabbi auman (young israel of flatbush) wrote an article in the jewish press after he was involved in the burial of yosef robinson h”yd (whose murderer’s sentence you covered in last week’s news links). JP is not google-able, but http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/jamaica_farewell should cover the story somewhat.

    i doubt this procedure was followed in trinity cemetery.

    2. a third of 19,000 seats for a chazzanut concert. big deal! (actualy, provide parking and reasonably priced kosher snacks / food, and you might get somewhere.)

    3. sfardim say shehecheyanu in america on a brit. (of course, sfardim say shehecheyanu for anything. and they consider a brit wothout shehecheyanu as not kosher. (tell them about MBP)

  39. daat y. says:

    For a discussion of the roots of the minhag of upsherin
    see R.Sperber Minhagei Yisroel Volume 8.

  40. Nachum says:

    MMY: Yes, I should have said Ashkenazim. An article in an AOJS article once discussed both this and Birkat Kohanim- of course, both are Sephardi-only in chu”l.

  41. Nachum says:

    MMY: Apparently, Koch *did* follow this procedure. His grave is fenced off and in a designated “Jewish section” (which apparently includes only him).

  42. mycroft says:

    “Nachum on February 5, 2013 at 2:35 am

    MMY: Apparently, Koch *did* follow this procedure. His grave is fenced off and in a designated “Jewish section” (which apparently includes only him)”
    How many “proud” Jews in NY elect to be buried in an Episcopal cemetery? This is not the case where there is no Jewish cemeteries around-it clearly was a planned attempt. I remember reading about it a few years ago and Koch liked the idea of not being buried n a Jewish cemetery,

  43. moshe shoshan says:

    Most MO and Chareidim come from poilishe/hungarian/chassidishe

    Davka, MO has its roots in the misndagdik dominated world of pre-WWII american Orthodoxy. My Great Grandfather was a gerrer chosid, but his kids learn in REITS and were only marginaly chasidish. MO are signifcantly more like to have family who came to the US pre WWII (and often WWI) than Chassidim.

  44. mycroft says:

    .” MO are signifcantly more like to have family who came to the US pre WWII (and often WWI) than Chassidim”

    In general Orthodox Jews are much more likely to have had their family come to US post 1930 than the general Jewish community.
    A study of the “turn to the right” might show that it is heavily weighted by demographics-it is not in general that the descendants of the pre WW11 Jewry have gone that way-it is the descendants of post WW11 immigrants who always stayed to the right. Of course, a lot of them have really become MO in hashkafa-college etc while keeping the superficial s of a right haskafa. Thus, pseudo nouveau chassidic schuls etc that have developed. It is possible that many MO descendants have left Orthodoxy precisely because of a turn to the r right-Rabbis who implicitly at least disparage what they learn at home do not encourage keeping parents hashkafa religion kids a plague on both and say sayonraay.

  45. Nachum says:

    mycroft, the stories are quite clear: He wanted to be buried in Manhattan, and this is the only active cemetery in the borough. That’s all- if there had been a Jewish cemetery, he would have chosen it. Plus, it’s not a religious cemetery.

  46. shachar haamim says:

    “mycroft, the stories are quite clear: He wanted to be buried in Manhattan, and this is the only active cemetery in the borough. That’s all- if there had been a Jewish cemetery, he would have chosen it. Plus, it’s not a religious cemetery”

    I read somewhere that Rabbi Arthur Schneir was willing to make “arrangements” to have a burial in one of the old Jewish cemeteries in Manhattan, but that Hizzoner wanted to be buried in a “cemetery which was bustling”

  47. joel rich says:

    I was struck by the following sequence:

    In Shira Chadasha-style minyanim, however, women can lead Kabbalat Shabbat, the Psukei Dezimra prayers, and Torah services. Inspired by rulings from Rabbi Mendel Shapiro and Rabbi Daniel Sperber, these minyanim are creating a space for egalitarian values within Orthodox Judaism…………

    One of the first college partnership minyan—Minyan Urim—was founded at Yale University by two graduate students, Michal and Elitzur Bar-Asher, who authored the Guide for the Halachic Minyan. …………

    After spending a gap year in Israel, however, Sarna learned all of the relevant articles and responsas and decided that she was comfortable with the principles behind Shira Chadasha.

    Time will tell.

    KT

  48. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Joel Rich: I am not sure what you found so striking about the sequence.

  49. joel rich says:

    Just that there’s a lot riding on that chain of authority.
    Kt

  50. Hoffa Araujo says:

    Interesting tidbits from “A Mechitza Runs Through It” article:

    With the Conservative minyan, it’s known that a big reason they’re struggling so much is because Shalva is so strong,” Katz said. Katz and Horwitz are now starting to talk to the Conservative minyan about the possibility of combining the two.

    “We think it would definitely turn away those 5 or 6 [Orthodox students], but at the same time it would bring in people who would otherwise go to the Conservative minyan,” Horwitz explained. “It’s kind of difficult for us.”

    Another concern for students lies in the partnership minyanim’s balance of tradition with egalitarianism.

    “It’s hard for me to imagine that partnership minyans are going to exist for a long time,” Sarna said. For Sarna, it’s somewhat awkward that Shira Chadasha minyanim don’t count women for a minyan and only let them lead some parts of the service. “In some ways it exacerbates the situations. We’ll let you do this, but only because we don’t even really need to do it,” she said.

    Bedo feels similarly.

    “I grapple with the idea that women can’t do everything. I grapple with halacha,” she said. In her opinion, the ideal minyan would be completely egalitarian, but with a mechitza separating men and women”

  51. Hirhurim says:

    I’ve been saying this for years. This entire approach of increasing women’s synagogue roles is just a halakhic dead-end.

    Another concern for students lies in the partnership minyanim’s balance of tradition with egalitarianism.

    “It’s hard for me to imagine that partnership minyans are going to exist for a long time,” Sarna said. For Sarna, it’s somewhat awkward that Shira Chadasha minyanim don’t count women for a minyan and only let them lead some parts of the service. “In some ways it exacerbates the situations. We’ll let you do this, but only because we don’t even really need to do it,” she said.

    Bedo feels similarly.

    “I grapple with the idea that women can’t do everything. I grapple with halacha,” she said. In her opinion, the ideal minyan would be completely egalitarian, but with a mechitza separating men and women”

  52. Hoffa Araujo says:

    The last quote appears to me to signify that there will be breakoff Partnership Minyanim in the future. You will have the right-wing and left-wing minyanim, where differences appear in letting women lead the entire davening or be counted for minyan. Ah, the ironing….

  53. Hoffa Araujo says:

    You will have Shira Chadasha and Shira Yashanah!

  54. Tal Benschar says:

    ““It’s hard for me to imagine that partnership minyans are going to exist for a long time,” Sarna said. For Sarna, it’s somewhat awkward that Shira Chadasha minyanim don’t count women for a minyan and only let them lead some parts of the service. “In some ways it exacerbates the situations. We’ll let you do this, but only because we don’t even really need to do it,” she said.”

    I guess I was on to something in my prior posts.

  55. emma says:

    “According to minyan co-leader and Michigan sophomore Isaac Katz, only five or so of the 40 students that come on an average week call themselves Orthodox.

    “It’s interesting there are few people who are ideologically linked to Shira Chadasha. I’m one of the few, I’d say,” Katz noted.

    When Katz and his co-leader, Michigan senior Stephanie Horwitz, ask attendees why they’ve come, students tend to mention the singing, people and friendly environment.

    “Maybe it does have something to do with the mechitza or the balance between tradition and egalitarianism, but that’s not what people articulate themselves,” Katz said.

    Because their minyan doesn’t draw so many Orthodox students, they end up impacting the Conservative community more noticeably.”

    I think this is true of adult partnership minyanim as well – some ppl go there primarily because they like the davening style (regardless of who leads) and the people more than at the local modern orthodox talk-through-kedusha-but-don’t-say-hi-to-anyone-new shul. Perhaps a constructive takeaway here is that modern orthodoxy should start to improve its synagogues in these ways that have nothing to do with egalitarianism (singing, being friendly)? (Of course not everyone wants singing, but most people want friendly :) )

  56. Scott says:

    I’ve noticed that the Flatbush Jewish Journal now has two anti-superstition ads. One is a re-run of the earlier ad in English signed by Rabbis Schorr, Lieff, and Reisman. The second is half-Hebrew and half-English, and is signed by a group of charedi leaders. The names are impressive, but the number isn’t. According to the ad, more signatures will be added. The second ad seems to be more specifically targeted at people who are offering to help with shiduchim in return for a hefty sum.

    See pp. 49 and 51 here:

    http://www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_836732

  57. ruvie says:

    r’ joel rich – the critical line is “after spending a year in israel…” this foreshadows general acceptance among young mo….they feel that this is consistent with orthodoxy and not outside it – regardless of what rabbis may say.

  58. ruvie says:

    Gil, Hoffa, Tal – the line that should concern you:
    “As the Shira Chadasha community at Penn grew stronger, Peltz realized that the minyan was enjoying increasing acceptance, not just on college campuses, but everywhere.”

    “I grapple with the idea that women can’t do everything. I grapple with halacha,” Do you blame them?

    don’t you grapple with issues in today’s world? does no orthodox jews grapple with many issues dealing with women?
    Tal – Don’t bet on any break away in partnership minyans that are orthodox in the near future.

    Gil – ‘This entire approach of increasing women’s synagogue roles is just a halakhic dead-end.”
    therefore, do nothing even if its permissible? eliminate them as officers and trustees too? seems bad logic. like don’t let them vote because they want to run for office.

  59. Hirhurim says:

    ruvie: don’t you grapple with issues in today’s world? does no orthodox jews grapple with many issues dealing with women?

    Of course we grapple. This is grappling in a disastrously wrong direction.

    therefore, do nothing even if its permissible?

    I’m a fan of the status quo but the middle approach is to expand other roles. The synagogue service is the wrong place to do it. Remember, the shul is NOT the center of Judaism.

  60. Hoffa Araujo says:

    Right, grappling doesn’t always lead to “yes, let’s do it!” kind of direction.

  61. emma says:

    “I’m a fan of the status quo”
    do you have a good way to spread this view? either by convincing women who are not currently convinced or by educating future girls/women not to be bothered? I ask this honestly.

  62. rita says:

    Scott:
    see somehowfrum.blogspot.com and thepartialview.blogspot.com regarding the ads in the FJJ. Go back several posts.

  63. ruvie says:

    Gil, Hoffa – you both quoted they same part of the article. basically,saying – see its never enough for “those” people. instead focus on the grappling and staying within orthodoxy.
    for some/many? women the synagogue is a major focal point in america for their judaism.

  64. Hoffa Araujo says:

    “I’m a fan of the status quo”
    do you have a good way to spread this view? either by convincing women who are not currently convinced or by educating future girls/women not to be bothered? I ask this honestly.”

    Emma – not to answer for Gil but there is no easy answer. If women cannot accept that the future of Orthodoxy hinges on their acceptance of less than they would receive without seriously twisting and changing halochic practice radically, then the result will be them leaving. Keep in mind that this article indicates that 20 years down the road, the question for OO will not be can we do partnership minyanim. It will be: why can’t a women be counted as part of a minyan or why can’t a woman lead the entire davening. So there is no question Orthodoxy, like most “fundamentalist” wings of Christianity, will lose adherents. There are no easy answers, but I bet that maintaining the status will further the integrity of halachoh and Orthodoxy then giving answer educated women would want or expect to hear.

  65. Hirhurim says:

    emma: I believe the key is education.

    ruvie: for some/many? women the synagogue is a major focal point in america for their judaism

    That is precisely the problem that we need to solve with education.

  66. Hoffa Araujo says:

    ruvie – this is my opinion and I don’t speak for anybody else, including Gil, but what feminisim has done is that it has exposed Judaism’s fundemental “patriarchial” values. Full equality according to halochoh is not possible. But until now, proponents have said that “we will adhere to halochoh and know its limits”. However, you see from this piece that whatever changes to accomodate women are not enough. So you reply – so we shouldn’t do anything? My answer is that you see the evidence that making even these “small” changes are insufficient. You can’t put the kibosh on change – it grows out of control. As IH keeps repeating “the genie is out of the bottle”. This is correct, except once its out of the bottle, it won’t go back in nicely.

  67. emma says:

    “There are no easy answers, but I bet that maintaining the status will further the integrity of halachoh and Orthodoxy then giving answer educated women would want or expect to hear.”

    garbled, i think. but it seems like you are saying that there is a necessary tension between women being “educated” and their accepting halachah. is this not an issue?

    Gil, “I believe the key is education.”
    care to elaborate? what kind of education? what current practices should be discarded, and what new ones implemented, if any?

  68. ruvie says:

    Gil – focal point – many women go to shiurim,do chesed and pray via their local shul. its a focal point for many women. i do not think that will change much

  69. ruvie says:

    “emma: I believe the key is education.’ its interesting that the young women that attend the partnership women all spent 1 or 2 years learning in israel. they are more learned than their mothers.

  70. emma says:

    “its interesting that the young women that attend the partnership women all spent 1 or 2 years learning in israel. they are more learned than their mothers.”

    that is true, but it’s true of this whole generation relative to their mothers, with rare exceptions. it’s true of the young women who have “slid to the right” as well…

  71. Hirhurim says:

    I don’t mean education in Tanakh, Gemara or other subjects, although that is certainly important. I meant education in proper hashkafah and priorities. I think that is sorely lacking, although that is just my impression. It actually seems to me that many schools, orgs, etc. are teaching misplaced priorities which causes women a lot of religious tension.

  72. ruvie says:

    Hoffa – “Full equality according to halochoh is not possible” agree
    “My answer is that you see the evidence that making even these “small” changes are insufficient.”
    i think you are misreading the situation. you can’t wave a wand and just say no when they do know how to learn and read sources. change in itself is not bad.

  73. ruvie says:

    Gil – ” I meant education in proper hashkafah and priorities.” can you be specific

  74. Scott says:

    “I don’t mean education in Tanakh, Gemara or other subjects, although that is certainly important. I meant education in proper hashkafah and priorities.”

    Ah, so you don’t mean education at all. You mean indoctrination.

  75. emma says:

    can you be specific? what specific practices do you want to see more and less of?

  76. Hirhurim says:

    Scott: You don’t believe in teaching Jewish thought? That’s a new one to me. Most people complain that it isn’t taught enough.

    ruvie and emma: No, I haven’t developed a curriculum and I’m not the right person to do it.

  77. emma says:

    actually, i’ll start with some specifics.
    it seems to me, also anecdotally, that those systems that are successful in raising women who are content with the status quo often rest at least in part on dubious or false assertions (such as that gemara is incompatible with the female brain).

  78. ruvie says:

    Gil – do not all mo schools teach machshava in high school and all learn more in depth in israel (at least my daughter spent more time on that than gemera at times).

  79. Scott says:

    Really, so then what are the sources of your “Jewish thought,” if not the “Tanakh, Gemara or other subjects”? I suppose it’s daas Torah.

  80. Hirhurim says:

    emma: My daughter has gone through the (moderate) Charedi educational system and has never heard anything like that. She was taught that girls aren’t supposed to learn Gemara but not that they aren’t capable. If anything, she has learned that girls are smarter.

    ruvie: It’s all a matter of *what* in machashavah they are taught. I have to believe that it is harder in coed schools to maintain dual emphases.

  81. Hirhurim says:

    I’m ignoring Scott until he can find a more mature way to communicate.

  82. Scott says:

    Fine with me. People will draw their own conclusions.

  83. emma says:

    I was trying to rely only on real examples and I believe I have heard that, but my memory of the covnersations in question is somewhat hazy. more importantly, my exposure was more to the products of such educations than the education itself. it could be that the teachers never said so, but some kids get the impression… also i think the girls in question were not from such moderate upbringings…

  84. emma says:

    “If anything, she has learned that girls are smarter.”

    do her brothers learn that too?

  85. Hirhurim says:

    do her brothers learn that too?

    No, but they recognize that their education is much inferior to girls’ education. And they happen to have a really smart sister.

  86. Anonymous says:

    >If anything, she has learned that girls are smarter.

    You’re okay with the kids being taught stupid things?

  87. Hirhurim says:

    Don’t be ridiculous. I was obviously being less than totally serious. She was taught to be proud and happy that she is a female.

  88. Nachum says:

    I guess I shouldn’t expect the Times to be accurate:

    1. Eruv or not, umbrellas are a no-no.

    2. Tefillin are not worn on Shabbat.

  89. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    gil — “Remember, the shul is NOT the center of Judaism.”

    it is for that segment. i recall r rakeffet once saying someone came over and gave him a very gracious hello. r rakeffet was stumped, couldnt recognize him. till he identified himself as his “neighbor” in shul. r rakeffet then realized, he said, that in america, you are identified by what shul you go (or dont go) to. in israel, its altogether meaningless.

    2. i recall koch very produly said he will be buried in a catholic cemetery. i presume he changed his mind when he found out there are no catholic ceneteries in mahattan.

    3. there are heterim for umbrellas, though not without an eruv. covered in old hirhurim blogspot times. however, not normative, and presumably not accepted by most readers here. as for tfillin, the writer meant talit bag.

    the key quote in the article is: “Estelle Lubliner, another Jewish member of the anti-eruv group, said she feared that the eruv “will make more Orthodox people come in, and it’s not right to the history of these towns.” ”

    however, dont they need a “schirat reshut” ( = some sort of property lease / license)? how d oes the eruv association intend to overcome it? (in tenafly, interstingly, they did it with the “shade tree commission”, which had legal jurisdiction. ortr legal enough for an eruv , which is very liberal in this particular requirement.)

    4. regarding r loike, he has a very very intersting presentation on kosher birds. worth a trip from anywhere.

  90. Steve Brizel says:

    R Gil quoted this excerpt:

    “Another concern for students lies in the partnership minyanim’s balance of tradition with egalitarianism.

    “It’s hard for me to imagine that partnership minyans are going to exist for a long time,” Sarna said. For Sarna, it’s somewhat awkward that Shira Chadasha minyanim don’t count women for a minyan and only let them lead some parts of the service. “In some ways it exacerbates the situations. We’ll let you do this, but only because we don’t even really need to do it,” she said.

    Bedo feels similarly.”

    All who can read and comprehend simple English- nine men and 100 men in the same room is a halachically meaningless gathering.

  91. Steve Brizel says:

    R Gil is correct-women have a far better Jewish education than men-Women know far more about Tanach and its commentaries, Machshavah, Tefilah, practical halacha and Jewish History than men whose education focuses on Talmud almost exclusively prior to their Bar Mitzvah. There is nothing to apologize for to engage in gender theory baked belittling of a curricilum which has a goal that Jewish women should be educated, but also should aim as a primary goal to raising a Bayis Neeman BYisrael and an Ain HaBanim Smechach.

    Like it or not, women were given the Mitzvah of chalah ( and men were not given a mitzvah of making cholent, which is a nice chesed that a man can easily do as his effort in helping prepare for Shabbos) and viewed as the saviors of Klal Yisrael after the calamitous experiences such as the Golden Calf, the spies and Korach and their desire for the Land of Israel, while men were prescribed obligatory time bound commandments to ensure that their memories and enthusisasm neither lagged nor led them to erroneous and disastrous thoughts and actions.

  92. Ruvie says:

    Gil – can you explain why you think it’s difficult to to teach machshava in coed h.s.- what issues are you hinting at? Can you at least describe the problem you were eluding to earlier where you thought education was an answer- even though you have not formulated one?

    It seems to some – or at least me – its more of indoctrination to follow more than anything else. Please clarify.

  93. Steve Brizel says:

    Emma wrote:

    ““its interesting that the young women that attend the partnership women all spent 1 or 2 years learning in israel”

    Where? There is a huge continuum of places for women to learn ranging from Charedi seminaries to RZ/MO oriented seminaries that run the full gamut of RZ and MO, all with a huge difference in orientation, what they learn, and the quality of their teachers.

  94. Anonymous says:

    The quote you cite was ruvie.

  95. Steve Brizel says:

    RJR quoted the following excerpt:

    “In Shira Chadasha-style minyanim, however, women can lead Kabbalat Shabbat, the Psukei Dezimra prayers, and Torah services. Inspired by rulings from Rabbi Mendel Shapiro and Rabbi Daniel Sperber, these minyanim are creating a space for egalitarian values within Orthodox Judaism…………

    One of the first college partnership minyan—Minyan Urim—was founded at Yale University by two graduate students, Michal and Elitzur Bar-Asher, who authored the Guide for the Halachic Minyan. …………

    After spending a gap year in Israel, however, Sarna learned all of the relevant articles and responsas and decided that she was comfortable with the principles behind Shira Chadasha”

    One is struck by the notion that a college aged student , regardless of her level of intelligence, thinks that she has msuch a strong knowledge of the ins and outs of such a contentious issue, that she thinks that she can decide such an issue without consenting at least her LOR, let alone a great Talmid Chacham on the issue. This is anarchy and simply invites the comment that Yeravam Ben Navat also had many followers and was viewed as quite popular, despite the terrible impact that his changes had on the Jewish People.

    Anarchy is what happens when Halachic norms and the need to realize that Teiku is preferable to grappling in the wrong direction are supplanted by “answers” that cannot be reconciled with halachic norms and Mesorah. Getting a haskamah from a rav whose expertise is in the development of Minhagei Yisrael, but who advocates changes in Nusach HaTefilah and as per R Frimer , does not understand the difference between Lachatchilah and Bdieved , cannot be viewed as a serious grappling for what Halacha demands of a young man and woman. The inability of such a supposedly well educated Jewish community to understand that nine men and one hundred women is a halachic nonsequitur is a tragedy.

  96. Nachum says:

    There is, by the way, a real halakhic issue here- if you have ten men and nine women (of course, as such minyanim only meet on Shabbat, which says something itself, this may not come up that much, but trust me, it would come up on weekdays), are you going to keep the men from fulfilling a real halakhic obligation because of some perceived social need? Not for me, thanks.

    MMY: It said tallit and tefillin.

    I think things would be a lot more straightforward if everyone admitted the truth: The non-Orthodox that they’re worried about an Orthodox influx, and the Orthodox that, yes, there are good reasons people would be so concerned, and maybe things could be worked out.

  97. avi says:

    re: “Natan Sharansky Mediates Jerusalem’s Western Wall Dispute”

    It’s so weird watching people fight over something which is meaningless compared to the place right above their heads.

    This is literally a situation of something flying over their heads and they just don’t understand.

  98. cyberdov says:

    “Unfortunately, such in-service training was not available for rabbis. That is, until now”

    For YU rabbis, that is. Other rabbinical schools have already developed and offreed such curricula.
    YU may be a little late to the party, but welcome aboard!

  99. Tal Benschar says:

    Many New Yorkers have wondered how Hasidic fashion changes with the seasons

    Yes, I bet that is something that keeps many New Yorkers up at night.

  100. Yosef says:

    Cyberdov-
    Are you referring to YCT?

  101. IH says:

    See also: http://www.allianceforcre.org/

    “The mission of the Alliance for Continuing Rabbinic Education (ACRE) is to support and promote the providers of Continuing Rabbinic Education, in collaboration with the national rabbinical associations, rabbinical seminaries, independent CRE providers and others.”

    RIETS and YCT are both listed under Alliance Participants.

  102. Steve Brizel says:

    Cyberdov wrote in response:

    “Unfortunately, such in-service training was not available for rabbis. That is, until now”

    For YU rabbis, that is

    I was under the impression that there were tracks in RIETS for chaplains, pulpit rabbanim and mchanchim.

  103. Ruvie says:

    On partnership minyanim: at the yu seforim sale tonight I met a yu undergraduate who informed me that a partnership minyan has recently formed in the heights…. With 20-50 participants. Guess who are co- founders and participants? Interesting is the acceptability among the mo even in the heights.

  104. RUVIE:

    i can’t seem to find much info on the seforim sale website. do you know when alumni night is (with its discount)?

  105. joel rich says:

    r’abba,
    this sunday”
    Sunday, February 10
    Alumni Discount Day
    All alumni with valid YU Alumni ID Cards will receive 5% off their Seforim Sale purchases. To obtain your YU Alumni Card, please submit a request by Monday, February 4 by completing this online form.

    KT

  106. ruvie says:

    The seforim sale website lacks any info on speakers or lectures and alumni family day – which is march 3 but the 5% discount is only(?) for feb. 10.
    btw, the scholarly section is bigger than usual but some prices seem to be very high (an old book of james kugel was 111.00). new r’ reichman resheimot of the rav on masachet beracot – 13.50- a bargain. but RAL new book – varieties of jewish experience 31.80 – why so expensive? less bargains in general and one wonders why the pricing is much higher than the past.

  107. joel rich says:

    Having gotten a perfect score on her LSAT exam, the highest mark in the country, she wasn’t nervous about getting accepted at one of the top universities.
    ====================================================
    I hesitate to write this, and I have the greatest respect for Rabbi Blech, but I would have preferred to see this sentence written as “Having done well on the LSAT’s and in college,she wasn’t nervous about getting accepted at one of the top universities. ”

    ISTM the amount of crowing in the MO community over accomplishments is not a strong point and is so expected that it is not even thought about in terms of hatznea lalechet. I sometimes wonder if it’s due to a need to show we can make it anywhere or something like that. As I sometimes tell newbies-don’t tell me how smart you are, if you are, I will most likely figure it out on my own.
    KT

  108. R. Joel:

    thanks. where did you see this? which online form?
    i guess too late anyway (past feb. 4)
    maybe i’ll bring my diploma.
    what time is it open on sunday?

  109. ruvie:

    i randomly checked 1 book i need to buy (r. freundel’s tefila book). it is $1 cheaper on amazon. in the past people have warned me that not everything is a bargain. some book are cheaper on amazon and some sets cheaper in brooklyn.

  110. Former YU says:

    The artcile on partnership minyanim quotes R’ Adam Mintz saying:

    “My question–and I have been bothered by this issue for some time–is why the women in the large Orthodox communities of America, the Teanecks and the Woodmeres and so many places in between, seem to be satisfied with the status quo. Are they not really satisfied but unable or unwilling to raise their voices? Are they traditionalists, as you describe, to the point that they are willing to sacrifice their own religious self-fulfillment in order to “daven like their mothers and grandmothers”?”

    That he sees these as the 2 options is sad and indicates a certain mindset that is troubling. The implicit, if not explicit assumption is that a partnership minyan is fulfilling and any woman who does not desire to do so is not living a religiously fulfilling life either a) b/c they are afraid to suppress their desire or b)they sacrifice to daven like their grandmothers”

    He can not even comprehend that a woman who is secularly educated and acculterated would be religiously fulfilled in a traditional Orthodox synagogue. Untill now on this blog we have see commentators claim that “many women are unhappy”. This takes it to another level, where any woman who appears satisfied with the status quo is either suppressing her true thoughts or sacrificing.

  111. “R Blech: Ed Koch’s Tombstone”

    i have fond memories of koch, if no other reason than he is the first mayor i remember, but especially because he was a real jewish mayor (as opposed to bloomberg). i was very impressed by his tombstone (not just the my parents are jewish line).

    but according to dov bear (?), perl uttered those words not in defiance or out of pride, but because it was part of the script his captors made him read ((i’m not saying he wasn’t otherwise full of jewish pride)

    http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-mayor-and-martyr-last-words-of.html

  112. joel rich says:

    r’abba,
    it was from an alumni email
    KT

  113. R. Rich:

    i don’t know where you live, but it can’t be a chidush to you that money is important to MOers (both for practical reasons and in order to enjoy life)

  114. Hirhurim says:

    Some books are very cheap. I got Prof. Joel Roth’s The Halakhic Process for a little less than $10. It is selling on Amazon for $30.

  115. i do think that overall you’ll save money (or at least won’t overpay). but if you’re just getting say one large set, it pays to shop around.

    of course part of it is the unrivaled experience. and there is stuff there that is sometimes difficult to find elsewhere. i’d also add that some of the money goes to a good cause, but i can’t since i’m not really sure how much goes where.

    (in the past i’ve encouraged friends who’ve never seen YU to go to the seforim sale.)

  116. joel rich says:

    r’ abba,
    The Vilna of Essex County.
    It’snot a chiddush that it’s important, but one can have $ without flaunting imho.

    KT

  117. Hirhurim says:

    The selection this year isn’t that great but there are still quite a few interesting books that you might not be able to find elsewhere.

  118. ruvie says:

    Gil – how about a list of best buys – value wise and importance too.
    Menachem finkelstein – Conversion: Halakhah and practice – is a bargain at $8.00 for an 800 pager.

  119. Hirhurim says:

    Sounds like too much work

  120. GIL:

    what if ruvie were re-phrase as a challenge: i’ll bet you can’t . . . :)

  121. Machshavos says:

    Former YU: I haven’t read the piece (it’s blocked to non-subscribers), but sometimes people give 2 options when they admit that more exist.

  122. Hoffa Araujo says:

    “He suggested that the new pamphlet is designed “not to bridge the gap” but to bring the Men’s Club back into the fold with the rest of the Conservative movement because it had been “in a distinct minority.”

    Get ready for a new denomination, a breakoff from Conservative: Men’s Clubs. Has a certain ring to it, no? :)

  123. Former YU says:

    Machshavos,

    That is possible, but doesn’t seem to be true here. He presents his 2nd option as the “traditionalist” option. I find it incredibly narrow-minded to view the traditionalist position, as one of women willingly sacrificing their personal religious self-fulfillment just because they do not insist on partnership minyanim, as opposed to recognizing a different path to religious self-fulfillment.
    It is particularly striking in the area of sex equality since there is so much recent literature about whether or not increased opportunity for women in their career and education opportunities has actually led to increased self-fulfillment.

  124. cyberdov says:

    RMB’s article on torture disturbs me because it seems too easy to examine the particular moral angle while ignoring the question that he concedes – i.e. is reliable, valuable information obtained by torture. This is not an academic exercise, it is a burning issue and the discussion must not skip over this fundamental question. It is too likely that if the discussion focuses on Zizek’s point, the discussion will end up giving short shrift to the question of the utility of torture. To my knowledge, the data shows that torture is not an effective means of eliciting reliable and valuable information, and this casts the Zizek question in a less important, perhaps more academic light.

  125. emma says:

    R Broyde says Zizek’s “comparisons to the Holocaust are just about as disturbing as his conspiracy-phobia is quaint.” Zizek’s whole point is that torture should be as morall repulsive to us as the holocaust, or rape. not something that can be presented neutrally to let all sides be evaluated, but something that can only be presented neutrally if the point is to evoke disgust at that very neutrality. One can have a substantive disagreement that torture should not, in fact, be a moral taboo, but I do not see how invoking the holocaust as the paradigmatic example of something everyone knows is evil s “disturbing.” Further, I have no idea what “quaint” conspiracy theories they are talking about.

    Also, there seems to be some interdisciplinary cross-talk here. zizek is a culture critic, r broyde is a law prof. zizek is talking about the cultural processes by which torture is normalized. the tone of r broyde’s article, which does not even engage on the cultural criticism re: normalizing torture and skips right to a “neutral” cost-benefit analysis of torture like any other practice, basically confirms zizek’s point. torture is normalized. r broyde thinks that’s ok, and so much so that he can’t even talk the same langauge as someone who thinks its not.

  126. ruvie says:

    “Why hasn’t the Orthodox egalitarian ‘synagogue revolution’ taken hold in America?”
    i think vered kellner misunderstands jewry and shuls in america. there are probably multiple more partnership minyans in north america than israel.
    but the dl community in israel is much more innovative than the mo community here in general for other reasons.

  127. emma says:

    re: kellner’s article, agree that the implication that partnership minyanim do not exist in america “Except for congregation Darkhei Noam in Manhattan and here and there at campus minyans (prayer quorums)” is just flat-out false. if she was instead implying that the other minyanim are more marginal, relative to establishment othodoxy, that may be correct, in the sens that in israel no one really cares where you daven on shabbat anyway…
    she also ignores the deoniminational history in the US that makes () the synagogue more central and (2) deviations in synagogue practice particularly sensitive here.

  128. joel rich says:

    R’ Emma,
    deoniminational history in the US that makes () the synagogue more central
    =====================
    more central to what?
    KT

  129. emma says:

    let me rephrase/rethink. more central both to individual religious identity and to group identification.

  130. ruvie says:

    Vered kellner ask a simple question -”Why does one community push the revolution in study ahead, while another puts no less strong an emphasis on the revolution in synagogues?”
    unfortunately, she doesn’t get it. Israel pushes women’s higher learning more than america- yoazot is a perfect example – are there women in america training to answer halachik questions?
    while WTG started and died – or is dying- in america. women in america focused more on representation in shuls more than anything else (how many women in israel are presidents of any major well known synagogues?

    it seems she has this idea of israeli moxi and doers via zionism that she try to craft around an issue that really doesn’t work in reality.

  131. joel rich says:

    r’ Emma,
    I agree it’s more central, not sure that it’s due to denominations, rather the dialectic of living in galut in a nation not truly uniquely our own?
    KT

  132. emma says:

    agree. the centrality to individuals is probably attributable to what you say. the centrality to group identity has something to do with denominations too, at least when it comes to women’s issues…

  133. emma says:

    iow changes to synagogue are perceived as “threats” in the Us in a way that they are not in israel, due to denominational issues.

  134. emma says:

    but i guess that was my #2 at first. the first issue of centrality is mostly not due to intra-jewish denominations, though may be related to the protestant majority…

  135. ruvie says:

    r’ joel rich – it is the way american society revolves around their synagogues vs israel and the alter heim. outside america the shul is just another building in the jewish community that is supported by a communal system (in europe it was/is the butcher tax). in america – learning, chesed, friends( fund raising, trips to israel,social events…) and sense of community is more tied to a shul than other institution. also, in america most folks daven in one shul all the time – not so in israel even on shabbat.

  136. ruvie says:

    emma – denominational issue – looking over your right shoulder- is only – i think – part of the reason. its also pressure from other affiliations the shul may have – rca,yu, ou, yi etc that exerts pressure on conformity in general on its synagogues and rabbis.

  137. ruvie says:

    sorry it should be r’ emma

  138. Former YU says:

    Much more high level womens learning in Israel than america. Its not even close.
    One interesting diff is that in Israel there is almost zero influence or interaction between DL and chareidim on religious issues. DL has its own poskim, yeshivos, batei din, kashrus etc. In America MO and chariedim are much more intertwined and integrated with each other, especially in out of town communities, which may have quite an impact on the spread of certain innovations to MO shuls.

  139. IH says:

    Institutional synagogue affiliation — not denomination, per se — was the center of American Jewish self-identity until the “rise of the nones”. Such institutional affiliation in Israel is largely irrelevant to self-identity.

  140. avi says:

    “RMB’s article on torture disturbs me because it seems too easy to examine the particular moral angle while ignoring the question that he concedes – i.e. is reliable, valuable information obtained by torture.”

    What if the purpose isn’t to gain information but rather to spread information to the community that the person being tortured comes from?

  141. ruvie says:

    Former YU – i would add – confidence. The DL community is much more confident in their religiosity than the american mo community. Here there is no Tzohar that has the respect of its DL/MO community.
    For example of confidence, i have heard that at one recent wedding – sheva berachot – under the chuppah – are shared with women. then this spread to other weddings in the DL community.

  142. emma says:

    Also, I think american jews expect a certain degree of dissonance between their outside/inside lives. we are a minority and there will always be things in our daily lives that don’t work with our religion. we learn to compartmentalize during the dec. holidays, and we carry it over to dissonance on the role of women at work vs. in shul. israelis, esp DL israelis, want integration, the outside culture is or should be “jewish” too, and they are less tolerant of dissonance for that reason, i think.

  143. emma/ruvie:

    good points

    ruvie:

    i feel that many MO in america don’t respect their own rabbinate (or even MO itself) and prefer RW rabbonim “when it matters.” i’ve heard of a number of cases where all the parties invoved were firmly MO, but one party demanded that a RW rav or beis din (depending on the situation) be consulted.

    on the other hand, i was speaking last year with a shaliach from israel about chag-gaz, a device that let’s you “turn off” a gas oven/stove on chag. i asked him if it’s accepted in israel and he said very much so. everyone accepts it, even if they don’t use it. (he said it’s not as practical as we would think because in israel most chagim are only 1 day anyway, so no different than shabbat.) i asked him if haredi rabbonim also approve and he gave me this look as if to say, who cares, what’s the difference? i’m not even sure why i asked him, curiosity, instinct, etc? but i found that type of confidence very refreshing.

    one more thing, a big difference i see between israel and america is that in israel there is a MO soceity, whereas here there a few pockets of local communities here and there.

  144. shmuel says:

    regarding R’ Blech’s statements about his daughter’s law school essay, I am surprised since I went to law school within about 5 years of his daughter and when I applied it was common knowledge that your essay mattered not at all in law school admissions –all that mattered was where you went to college, what grades you got, and LSATs (plus affirmative action where applicable). The truth of this was borne out at the time by dozens of people I went to college with. So his story about his daughter sounds like one of a rightfully proud, but somewhat misinformed father. Maybe it was an essay to receive a scholarship or something?

  145. Hirhurim says:

    While I also appreciate the RZ (not really MO) self-confidence in Israel, I don’t think the sharp split between camps is healthy. We should be wishing for less disunity, not more. We can have self-confidence without disunity but in Israel they seem to go hand in hand.

  146. Shlomo says:

    Living in Israel, I am quite surprised to see that the DL community is being held up as an example of tolerance and egalitarianism. The absolute number of “partnership minyans” may be greater here than in the US, but the overall size of the community is so much larger that their overall “market share” and visibility is much smaller. As much as I belong to the Ashkenazi-American-liberal-upper-class “bubble” of which the egalitarian crowd is a part, I must admit that it is numerically far outweighed by the “merkazniks” (think R’ Aviner and his separate male/female buses), as well as the traditional-Sephardic communities which dominate the periphery of the country.

    Even in a place as liberal as Alon Shvut, very few women go to synagogue on a regular basis. Perhaps they obtain religious fulfillment elsewhere. To be a komunarit in bnei akiva, for example, an option available to teenage girls, is quite obviously a more serious undertaking than anything in an egalitarian minyan.

    What I think IS true is that if one does depart from the prevailing rabbinic norms (partnership minyans, women in the army, etc.) it does not mark one as outside the religious community. I think that is because Reform/Conservative are so much smaller that there is no danger of being identified as one of them.

  147. Tal Benschar says:

    on the other hand, i was speaking last year with a shaliach from israel about chag-gaz, a device that let’s you “turn off” a gas oven/stove on chag. i asked him if it’s accepted in israel and he said very much so. everyone accepts it, even if they don’t use it.

    What does it mean they accept it but don’t use it? It is just not practical?

    BTW, R. Moshe Feinstein held that it is muttar to turn off a gas stove on Yom Tov (and even on Shabbos it is only a muktzeh issue). He hints at the hetter in his teshuvos. Although the hetter is not widely followed, among families in the Lower East Side, or those who come from there, it is.

  148. Steve Brizel says:

    I agree with Former YU’s comment re R A Mintz’s perspective-that is illustrative of a POV that simply can’t believe that any educated Jewish woman in both Jewish and secular studies is happy behind a mechitzah. That IMO is an elitist POV that is dismissive of the rov binyan and minyan of both Charedi and MO women who would never attend a WTG or a Partnership Minyan. It reminds me of Pauline Kael’s response to the Nixon landslide of 1972-she couldn’t fathom the result because none of her friends in Manhattan voted for Nixon.

  149. Steve Brizel says:

    Tal is correct-anyone in the US who has been confronted by such a sakanos nefashos on YT will turn off the gas stove.

  150. Steve Brizel says:

    Ruvie wrote:

    “On partnership minyanim: at the yu seforim sale tonight I met a yu undergraduate who informed me that a partnership minyan has recently formed in the heights…. With 20-50 participants”

    Compare that number with the mispallelim who attend the nearby Mt Sinai, Schenk shul and RIETS Beis Medrash minyanim.

  151. Steve Brizel says:

    The sale generally has a nice selection, and is unrivaled re the prices for sets of Rishonim, etc, but if one has access to Biegeleisen , Lishkas HaSeforim or Tuvya’s in Monsey or a store of similar quality, you will see seforim in such a store that are not yet at the sale.

  152. IH says:

    Former YU and Steve — how is R. Mintz’ statement qualitatively different than R. JJ Schacter telling my wife and me in 1990 — over 20 years ago, as Rabbi of the JC — that he did not understand why the women in the congregation were not demanding more and that there was a limit to what he could initiate without pressure from the congregants?

  153. Former YU says:

    IH,

    First answer is that maybe it is not different. The second answer is that perhaps as rabbi of the shul he knew certain women and their POV and was surprised that some women were not advocating for greater change. However tht is different from saying that any woman not advocating for change is suppressing them feelings or sacrificing tehir religious fulfillment. My point was that at a minimum R’ Mintz should be able to recognize that teh status quo can be fulfilling for some and not fulfilling for others.

  154. IH says:

    Former YU — I did not read the quotation from R. Mintz as you are. Perhaps you have read in an “or” between his two questions (that is not there) and assuming he is setting an either/or. I read it as two pointed possibilities among a longer list that is not itemized.

  155. ruvie says:

    Steve b. – there is nothing to compare. its that in the heights there is such a minyan that just started and is gaining traction – and its leaders/members graduated from where? its the acceptance in what is considered rwmo territory and not the UWS. just surprising to me.

  156. ruvie says:

    Shlomo – in alon shevut they may not go to minyan but do they do daf yomi?

  157. ruvie says:

    Another error in vered kellner’s asticle:
    “Partnership minyans were born and bred in Israel simply because there was no alternative in Israel. While in the United States an Orthodox young woman who begins to nurture a feminist awareness can with relative ease find an outlet for her feelings in a Conservative synagogue near home.”

    you would think that since she is now living here in the u.s. she would ask someone about this assumption. how wrong could a person be on this topic!

  158. emma says:

    there was a partnership-ish minyan that tried and failed int he heights a few years ago, on the non-yu side and mostly not yu kids. and then of course there was http://kavvanah.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/women-kabblat-shabbat-and-23-years/

    on alon shvut, 10-15 years ago i knew some (american) kollel wives who used to try to go to morning minyan at the yishuv shul. during slichot when things got crowded some spaces were double books with the end result that the women ended up sitting int he hallway for much of the service. when one asked for a (not difficult) readjustment that would have moved the minyan they attended to a space with an actual ezrat nashim she was told, i believe “biglal zeh at lo mechuyevet.” there is a chicken/egg problem in terms of women not going to minyan and minyan not being welcoming to women…

  159. emma says:

    also, “liberal” women don’t necessarily want to go to synagogue regularly, because most men don’t either…

  160. TAL:

    interesting. ppl really turn it off on chag on the LES?

    STEVE:

    unless i missed something, tal didn’t say anything about sakanos nefashos. and in any case, in a case of sakanos nefashos, what’s the chiddush? why would you need a heter from rav moshe to turn it off?

  161. TAL:

    “What does it mean they accept it but don’t use it? It is just not practical?”

    chag is generally one day. just like they can live through shabbat one day a week without using the stove/oven without any tircha, they can do so on chagim as well. that’s what he told me. (in general he said he doesn’t understand the american obsession with cooking so many fresh meals even over a 2 day chag)

  162. Tal Benschar says:

    interesting. ppl really turn it off on chag on the LES?

    Yes. I know one Rosh Yeshiva who does.

    Chag is generally one day. just like they can live through shabbat one day a week without using the stove/oven without any tircha, they can do so on chagim as well. that’s what he told me. (in general he said he doesn’t understand the american obsession with cooking so many fresh meals even over a 2 day chag)

    Well, the gemara says one should bake fresh bread on yom tov, because it tastes better, and that is simchas yom tov. Most people I know don’t bake fresh bread on YT, but many do make fresh meat/chicken, for the same reason.

    My wife prefers to cook in advance and just reheat. She enjoys YT better. Still, the food does taste better when you can just put it into the oven an hour before the meal, rather than leaving it overnight as per Shabbos, or putting it on the blech (for those who do that). Not to mention you can reheat liquidy foods on YT, which you cannot do on Shabbos.

  163. Tal Benschar says:

    BTW, since you mention it, I once saw someone barbecue in Israel on yom tov. They had a charcoal BBQ, which they set up the day before, and then just lit on YT using a match from a lit yahrzeit candle.

    Freshly barbecued steaks on yom tov, that seems to be a real kiyum of simchas yom tov.

  164. Steve Brizel says:

    ruvie wrote:

    “Steve b. – there is nothing to compare. its that in the heights there is such a minyan that just started and is gaining traction – and its leaders/members graduated from where? its the acceptance in what is considered rwmo territory and not the UWS. just surprising to me.”

    I think that the comparison is obvious-people vote with their feet, and in WH , 20-30 people compared to who davens elsewhere is insignificant.

  165. Steve Brizel says:

    I agree with R Broyde-but for a much different reason-WT Sherman commented that war is hell. I don’t think that Sherman’s march to the sea, Sheridan’s rampage through the Shenandoah and a naval blockade of the south or even the assassinatioon of Yamamoto in an unarmed airplane would pass muster under such the Zizek standard.

  166. TAL:

    i bought an adapter for my gas grill so i can use the small tanks on chag and just let the gas run out.

  167. Steve Brizel says:

    IH wrote:

    “Former YU and Steve — how is R. Mintz’ statement qualitatively different than R. JJ Schacter telling my wife and me in 1990 — over 20 years ago, as Rabbi of the JC — that he did not understand why the women in the congregation were not demanding more and that there was a limit to what he could initiate without pressure from the congregants”

    It is exactly the same and IMO suffers from the above described malady.

  168. Ruvie says:

    Tal – is r’ moshe referring to a gas stove with a pilot? I assume this may be different than the gas stoves we have today that are electric ignition and have no pilot. Btw, the old gas stoves, I believe, are illegal in manhattan even if you can find one. If its the old gas stoves then I thought everyone used to shut them off because the pilot remained on all the time ( at least in my home with European parents).

    Btw, I think it a shame that people reheat food on yom tov and not cook fresh food on the spot. It’s yom Tov not shabbat.

  169. RUVIE:

    i don’t understand. the problem isn’t just extinguishing the fire (which of course isn’t a problem with a pilot light), but isn’t it also just lowering the flame altogether?

  170. Tal Benschar says:

    Ruvie: not the way I heard it from LES people, and from R. Moshe’s grandson. His sevara, basically, is that because the gas comes continusouly through a pipe (or even from a large tank, as is done in Israel), then it has not been set aside for that fire. All you are doing is keeping extra fuel from coming in, not taking away fuel that has been made part of the fire. The flame goes out by itself because it loses fuel. (I once saw a Rashi somewhere that had a very similar sevara).

  171. Tal Benschar says:

    i bought an adapter for my gas grill so i can use the small tanks on chag and just let the gas run out.

    Didn’t know you need an adaptor. I did once think of doing this, but never bothered. I do have a small portable grill that uses small tanks, which I have used on picnics, but never on YT.

  172. GIL:

    “While I also appreciate the RZ (not really MO) self-confidence in Israel, I don’t think the sharp split between camps is healthy. We should be wishing for less disunity, not more. We can have self-confidence without disunity but in Israel they seem to go hand in hand.”

    yes there should be more unity, both here and in israel, but that unity should be predicated on mutual respect, recognition, etc. As long as the respect, recognition, etc. mostly unidirectional, it is really only an ostensible unity. so in the meantime, given the choice between an indpendent and bold israeli MO (or RZ, if you prefer) and the obsequious and diffident american variety, i’d prefer the former.

  173. TAL:

    if you want to use the small tanks on a full size grill (or vice versa) then you need a special adapter (hookup is different). of course you use a regular tank too on chag, but then you’ll be wasting gas.

  174. emma says:

    ” ruvie on February 7, 2013 at 8:21 pm

    Another error in vered kellner’s asticle:
    “Partnership minyans were born and bred in Israel simply because there was no alternative in Israel. While in the United States an Orthodox young woman who begins to nurture a feminist awareness can with relative ease find an outlet for her feelings in a Conservative synagogue near home.”

    you would think that since she is now living here in the u.s. she would ask someone about this assumption. how wrong could a person be on this topic!

    it is true that during the formative/experimental college years, most orthodox women at secular colleges have a real option to go to a fully egalitarian service on shabbos, at least. and many do, and sometimes make the switch. (Even if later in life they attend only orthodox shuls for logistical reasons…)

  175. Shlomo says:

    Shlomo – in alon shevut they may not go to minyan but do they do daf yomi?

    Daf yomi doesn’t happen in public, but I assume some do…

  176. MJ says:

    Kellner misses the main difference between Israel and the US: the social function of the shul. People in the US are not going to shlep their kids to a pertnershipish minyan when nearly all the other kids from school (and their parents) go somewhere else. In RZ Israel shul does not play the same role of social fixture, so going to an egal shul has much less of an effect on the rest of you and your kids social life.

    Also, her description of the state of women’s learning is unfortunately exaggerated. Barely any girls’ or coed high schools in either country teach gemara as a focal point of the curriculum; there is only one seminary in Israel attended by by Americans that has intense daily gemara seder, (there are a few others that do not have programs for anglo gap year kids). Post college you still only have drisha and the stern program (and yeshivat maharat, I suppose) in the US and they are small programs. In Israel there is more in the college and post college category but if you live in the US chances are you have probably never heard of them beyond Matan, Nishmat and Lindenbaum which have very limited funding for women who want to learn full time.

  177. Anonymous says:

    “Farber said the unwillingness by both the Interior Ministry and Chief Rabbinate to trust Nina’s three converting rabbis is a harbinger of worse things to come.

    “It makes it clear that the Rabbinate,” which the ministry consulted in this case, “plans to review almost every Orthodox conversion ever performed in the U.S.” — should the convert wish to live or be married in Israel.

    American Orthodox rabbis “ought to be up in arms over this latest development and formulating a strategy for how to address this latest round of disenfranchisement,” ”

    Not a surprise-it is the obvious result of the cave in by the RCA a few years ago where they as part of a strategy to be accepted by the Chareidi world sacrificed gerim who converted by their standards.

  178. mycroft says:

    Anonymous on February 8, 2013 at 4:54 am

    was me.

  179. LongTimeReader says:

    A couple of clarifications:

    - There are women in America studying to be Yoatzot.

    - There are a few Gap-Year seminaries in Israel (at least Migdal Oz, Lindenbaum, Nishmat, Sha’alvim) that have Gemara as part of their daily lineup and many others offer it as an option.

  180. LDH says:

    While recognizing that individual data points do not constitute statistics, I have been doing daf yomi for several years now and know at least a few other women in the greater new york area who are also doing daf yomi.

  181. Noam Stadlan says:

    as many predicted, the RCA is not able to live up to the promises it made regarding conversion. There is a price to capitulation to Chareidim. This is what the RCA wrote in response to criticism by R. Avi Weiss:
    ‘Of course it would not be reasonable to expect that adoption of a new, more centralized system would come with a promise to recognize all previous conversions. The RCA never made such a promise. What it did say was that any conversions performed previously that met its standards then, would continue to be recognized. That policy has been firmly upheld.’

    It seems the policy is not being firmly upheld.

  182. Anon says:

    One of my high school rebbeim was married to one of RMF’s granddaughters and i recall him telling us that RMF said with a pilot light you could turn a stove or oven on and off on yom tov/

  183. Hirhurim says:

    From what I see in the article, no one bothered consulting with the RCA. They went straight to the press.

  184. mycroft says:

    Noam Stadlan on February 8, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    as many predicted, the RCA is not able to live up to the promises it made regarding conversion. There is a price to capitulation to Chareidim. This is what the RCA wrote in response to criticism by R. Avi Weiss:
    “‘Of course it would not be reasonable to expect that adoption of a new, more centralized system would come with a promise to recognize all previous conversions. The RCA never made such a promise. What it did say was that any conversions performed previously that met its standards then, would continue to be recognized. That policy has been firmly upheld.’”

    Misleading doubletalk. Conversions performed by Rabbis who were not “professional converters” who did maybe a couple a year-the vast majority which were giyurei katan or conversion of those of heterodox descent who became baalei tshuva and then found out were not halachikally Jewish. They are applying their challenges to geirus from half a century ago when a daughter of a giyores wants to make aliyah in her early 20s. These include conversions done by most RCA Rabbis including those who to the best of my knowledge have not been accused as “LWMO” by commentators. It is not kavod Rabbanim at stake due to the nature of things-a ger converted decades ago there is a good chance the Rabbis are in the yeshiva shel maalah-it is the onaas hager that no one is concerned about.
    The impact by the way is greater than those wishing to make aliyah-I am familiar with living Rabbonim who will since this new RCA cavein a few years ago-will not encourage those were giyurei katan and went to day school to go to year in Israel programs eg Yeshiva etc because of the discrimination against gerim.

  185. mycroft says:

    “Hirhurim on February 8, 2013 at 1:15 pm

    From what I see in the article, no one bothered consulting with the RCA. They went straight to the press.”

    I have been told of this problem besides my original complaint by many Rabbis from various schuls in North America. None to the best of my knowledge actively search out gerim or do conversions for marriage-as I stated the overwhelming majority of gerim were from geiyurei katan or baalei paradoxically some of the more aggressive people who did do for sake of marriage had registered with the Israeli CR and thus no problem-mainstream Rabbonim believed they could trust future Rabbonim to stand by prior RCA policy and chazakah. Their belief was sadly wrong.

  186. Larry Lennhoff says:

    More on (British) courts and agunot: http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2013/02/british-court-for-first-time-refers.html

    Money quote: For this reason, the mother was unwilling to agree to the complex provisions of the arbitration award unless the Get was given. Equally, the father was unwilling to agree to give the Get until the court had approved the award and indicated that it would agree to its terms being incorporated in a court order. The solution arrived at by the parties was for the court to convene a hearing, consider the terms of a draft order based on the arbitration award and, if so minded, indicate that it would be prepared to make the order in the best interests of the children, whereupon the father would forthwith attend at the London Beth Din with the mother and go through the lengthy ceremony for the giving of the Get….

  187. Noam Stadlan says:

    R. Gil. Who did or did not go to the RCA is irrelevant. The RCA committed itself to making sure that appropriate converts would be recognized. The RCA was representing both itself and the Israeli authorities when it made this promise. It is responsible when either one renege.

  188. Hirhurim says:

    It seems like in this case, the RCA did not know about the issue so could not even attempt to resolve it

  189. JLan says:

    “It seems like in this case, the RCA did not know about the issue so could not even attempt to resolve it”

    At the very least, nothing in the article (and I’ll admit we haven’t seen the Rabbi’s side of things) suggests that anything particularly out of the ordinary happened. There’s no reason that conversions need to go through a specific geirut beit din. In light of the serious issue of onaat ger, shouldn’t there have to be some additional criteria to trigger a rejection of such a gerut? That is, it seems from this that the presumption is that all gerut is suspect, rather than presuming it to be valid unless a good reason is given.

  190. Nachum says:

    Mycroft: Discourage them from going to Israel for the year? That’s ridiculous.

    MJ: My esteemed spouse takes the opposite view of you. She points out that because shul isn’t the center of Jewish life in Israel, women don’t care as much about participation. Hence, less (proportional) such groups.

    Tal: I had barbecue last Rosh Hashana.

    My first thought on seeing R’ Landes’ piece was “A shanda for the goyim- why help Beinart in his insidious campaign on his page?” This was changed to shock- he was ready to get into a physical fight with a chasid over a *joke*, and is willing to write about it afterwards? Again I quote my wife: Nothing is more “commerce” oriented than Kikar Shabbat.

  191. mycroft says:

    “Nachum on February 9, 2013 at 3:54 pm
    Mycroft: Discourage them from going to Israel for the year? That’s ridiculous.”

    I am just stating facts-BTW-all of that Rabbis children have gone to Israel for at least a year-but I am reporting reality. The onaas ger has a reached such a point that Rabbis who npormally advocate Israel won’t do it for gerim.

  192. mycroft says:

    “That is, it seems from this that the presumption is that all gerut is suspect, rather than presuming it to be valid unless a good reason is given.”
    In a nutshell that is the problem.

  193. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Re Rabbi Landes’ column, I’m with you: What it illustrates, if anything, is not the difference between Haredim and Dati-Leumi but, if anything, that between (some) husbands and their much more sensible wives!

  194. joel rich says:

    Sometimes I feel like resigning, lulai toratcha:
    http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323485704578258350111321138.html

    After These Jewish Prayer Services, Things Come ‘To Life’ at Open Bar To Woo Worshippers, Synagogues Compete With Food and Booze; Hosting in the Hamptons.

    By LUCETTE LAGNADO
    Carlos Chattah Main sanctuary of ‘The Shul’ near Bal Harbour, Fla. It replicates three synagogues—in Warsaw, Krakow and Prague—destroyed by the Nazis in World War II, according to Rabbi Sholom Lipskar.
    .
    .
    Come Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, the atmosphere at Rabbi Sholom Lipskar’s synagogue near Bal Harbour, Fla., turns festive. The eating and drinking start early.

    Very early.

    The synagogue, called The Shul, attracts anywhere from 500 to 800 people each week. Most attend services in the main sanctuary that start around 9 a.m. But some early birds show up for prayers that begin at 7:15 a.m. and conclude by 9:15. Then it is party time for the largely male crowd.

    This elegant seaside place of worship is on the cutting edge of the Kiddush—a lavish repast that has helped transform the staid postservice fellowship hour to the kind of boozy, over-the-top spread synonymous with weddings.

    Such affairs have become so de rigueur to luring congregants that Rabbi Lipskar has solicited donors for a special “Kiddush bank” to fund the pricey libations and epicurean fare that can cost anywhere from $1,800 to $3,600 per week.
    .
    “It is perfect,” says Rabbi Lipskar, whose synagogue is part of the Hasidic Lubavitch movement. “God didn’t make the delicious stuff only for non-Jews.” Those who want a shot of hard liquor—they don’t say “let’s have a drink,” but “let’s have a L’chaim,” he says, referring to the traditional Jewish toast “to life.”

    “This is not a drinking fest,” he adds. “The drinks are in small cups.”

    In the face of dwindling attendance at religious services, many rabbis have become similarly creative. At the Bal Harbour shul and other synagogues, the sumptuous food, fine wines and liquors are a way to help draw congregants.

    As early as January, Rabbi Marc Schneier was already well into planning his synagogue’s summer worship in New York’s posh Hamptons community. He is lining up guest speakers, interviewing assistant rabbis—and considering ways to improve on the martini bar.

    The “L’chaim” table of high-price spirits is the most popular feature of The Hampton Synagogue’s Saturday summer service. “There is always vodka, an assortment of single malts, tequila,” says Robert Fisher, a friend of the rabbi who serves as adviser on food and drink.

    KT

  195. mycroft says:

    “joel rich on February 9, 2013 at 8:14 pm
    Sometimes I feel like resigning, lulai toratcha:
    http://professional.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323485704578258350111321138.html

    After These Jewish Prayer Services, Things Come ‘To Life’ at Open Bar To Woo Worshippers, Synagogues Compete With Food and Booze; Hosting in the Hamptons.”

    Worth a post by itself-not only this extreme but the whold idea of lavish kiddushes in general.

  196. Charlie Hall says:

    “I have been doing daf yomi for several years now and know at least a few other women in the greater new york area who are also doing daf yomi.”

    There are at least two in Riverdale. I’m married to one of them. :)

  197. moshe shoshan says:

    Shlomo – in alon shevut they may not go to minyan but do they do daf yomi?

    There is aregular day yomi shiur for women in Alon Shvut.
    here is their siyum hashas

  198. joel rich says:

    ironic that daf yomi is the admission ticket to recognition, but i don’t have enough flame retardant to get into that discussion again :-)
    KT

  199. IH says:

    http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-passion-for-truth/ by R. Jeffrey Wolff

    “In that demand for truth, Duvi held everyone to the highest standard, even (or, especially), God Himself. David Hartman truly engaged with, debated with, and struggled with God. At a time when religious thinkers seem to speak of everything but Him, he placed God squarely at the center of the Jewish agenda. I admit, and he knew this very well, that I disagreed vehemently with many of his positions and conclusions. However, for this, I truly admired and appreciated him.”

  200. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: I hope you are going to post a link to the passing of Rabbi Prof. David Hartman z”l.

  201. Hirhurim says:

    I generally do not post death notices. Ein la-davar sof

    Here is my review of his book in the last Jewish Action (I was asked repeatedly to review the book, which I did not want to do). An exchange of letters should appear in the next issue
    http://www.ou.org/jewish_action/11/2012/the-god-who-hates-lies-confronting-rethinking-jewish-tradition/

  202. aiwac says:

    IH,

    Please take care to spell my family name correctly. It’s Woolf, not Wolff.

  203. mycroft says:

    ” Lawrence Kaplan on February 10, 2013 at 1:27 pm

    Gil: I hope you are going to post a link to the passing of Rabbi Prof. David Hartman z”l.”

    See my 1043 post for a link.

  204. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    mycroft: Thank you for your link, but it is not the same as Gil posting one.

    Gil: As a general rule it is indeed a good policy not to post death notices, but here you would be linking to an article about someone who, whatever one thinks of his views, was a major and influential relgious and intellectulal figure on the Jewish scene.

  205. mycroft says:

    ” I generally do not post death notices. Ein la-davar sof”
    I tend to agree with Gil-see eg just today a known Ravs levayah

    http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=23979&alias=rabbi-chaim-zev-bomzer-84-obm

  206. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    With respect to R. Bomzer z”l, he did not have the presence and visibility and impact on the American and Israeli scene as did R. Hartman.

  207. mycroft says:

    “Lawrence Kaplan on February 10, 2013 at 6:52 pm

    With respect to R. Bomzer z”l, he did not have the presence and visibility and impact on the American and Israeli scene as did R. Hartman”

    Agreed certainly in terms of Jewish thought-but Hirhurim is an Orthodox blog-one could argue that Rabbi Hartman for more than 4 decades rejected fundamental beliefs of Orthodox Judaism-for his first decade or so after smicha he was probably the rising star of MO-he was the leading draw of TLS etc. For more than the last 4 decades RDH A”H openly did not accept classical Orthodox Yahadus. He had the integrity not to try and hide it. Thus, as a clear open r ejector of binding nature of Halacha he was not a factor in beliefs of Traditional Orthodox Judaism.
    Anyone who ever met Rabbi Hartman would remember his warm personality-it has been more than 4 decades since I last met him but certainly remember him for his warm and dynamic personality.

  208. IH says:

    Not withstanding the strong feelings of many here, I am not convinced that RDH is (or will be) viewed as non-Orthodox by a significant plurality of Modern Orthodoxy. He many end up being the most significant and influential Modern Orthodox thinker among the Rav’s students. Time will tell.

  209. ZPinchas says:

    IH: Not R. Lichtenstein?

  210. emma says:

    “” I generally do not post death notices. Ein la-davar sof””

    With respect to R. Bomzer z”l, he did not have the presence and visibility and impact on the American and Israeli scene as did R. Hartman.

    and Menachem Elon, a”h? (d. Feb. 6) IT end to agree that just posting death notices is an unnecessary exercise in line drawing. now, if someone writes a particularly interesting reflection on the life of a recently deceased person, it is worth linking by whatever criteria you would use if the person was not recently deceased…

  211. IH:

    “I am not convinced that RDH is (or will be) viewed as non-Orthodox by a significant plurality of Modern Orthodoxy”

    what plurality? how many MOers do you think really know who he is, and of those who can identify him, how many know enough about his thought to offer a legitimate opinion on his orthodoxy (or lack thereof)

    i’m not trying to diminish his intellectual legacy, but let’s not exaggerate his popularity either

  212. IH says:

    Z Pinchas — Yes.

    Abba — In the Manhattan MO crowd, it seems to me he is well known, if nothing else, for The Hartman Institute; and if one discusses Jewish Covenant Theology, people realize they know, and relate, to the concepts even if they do not immediately identify it with RDH (or R. Yitz Greenberg).

  213. Nachum says:

    R’ Bomzer! Barukh Dayan Emet. I had him in YU for a few courses, and he was a great rebbe. I attended the memorials for R’ Kahane in his shul for many years as well, and he always spoke briefly at the beginning.

    You do have to love how Chabad sites make it all about the Rebbe…

    IH, we on the blog world live in a bubble. Use the words “Jewish Covenant Theology” to about 99.9% (I do not exaggerate) of Modern Orthodox Jews, and they’ll look at you like you have two heads. Explain it, and it will be like you’ve got three.

  214. moshe shoshan says:

    As far as I know, in later years, Hartman never claimed to be Orthodox. At the very least however, modern Orthodoxy was greatly influnced by him in their efforts to distaqncence themselves from Hartman. There are few people on the Jewish scene, especially with close connections to the Orthodox world who were in his league.
    I think the ein ledavar sof argument is quite weak inthis case. Just a link not a post unless you have something to say.

    I though perhaps Prof. Kaplan could perhaps repeat his anecdote about his conversation with the Rav about Hartman.

  215. mycroft says:

    “I though perhaps Prof. Kaplan could perhaps repeat his anecdote about his conversation with the Rav about Hartman”

    Agreed and with a clarifying request-what year did the anecdote take place -if 1968 somewhat interesting-if 1978 or so very interesting. Was it after RDH had clearly left classical Torah hashkafa.

  216. IH:

    Limiting your statement to Manhattan does nothing to validate it (except perhaps to reveal a sense of snobbery).

  217. Nachum says:

    Abba: And not even true, even if you limit it (as one must) to the Upper West Side.

  218. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Moshe and mycroft: Sure. The incident happened in the Summer of 1980 or 1981 when I met with the Rav in the Twersky home in Brookline to review my draft translation of Ish ha-Halakhah. One time, as I was coming in Rabbi Hartman was just leaving. After he left, the Rav asked me, “Do you know him?” “Sure I know him,” I replied. The Rav then asked me “So, what do you think of him?” Of course, I wanted to say that the question is not what I think of him, but what you think of him. I gave a very evasive, non-commital answer. “He’s a great speaker. Very controversial” or something like that. The Rav then was silent for several seconds obviously thinking. Then he said, “He’s a searcher. Could use more discipline. I like him.” Everyone who knew Rabbi Hartman to whom I have told this has said that this sums him up perfectly.

  219. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: You could link to the NY Times obituary.

  220. Hirhurim says:

    I’m intentionally not commenting anymore about Hartman. I’ll wait for after shivah before saying anything unkind.

  221. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: No one was asking you to comment. I was asking you to link to an article as part of “News and Links.”

  222. Hirhurim says:

    I meant that I am not commenting to explain further why I don’t believe this merits an exception.

  223. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: Got it. I hope you feel can link to an article about the passing of Justice Menachem Elon.

  224. emma says:

    “In the Manhattan MO crowd, it seems to me he is well known, if nothing else, for The Hartman Institute”

    IH, your world is small… Most of the Manhattan (read UWS and perhaps UES, it seems) self-identified MO crowd knows a lot more about which shul has the best cholent on which shabbos than about anything hartman-related. and arguably most of MO is not in manhattan. So if you mean “my friends know him,” you may be right, but they are not representative. This is actually one of the bigger problems, sociologically, with partnership minyanim, in my opinion – the self-segregation of a certain “crowd” leads them to have no idea what is going on elsewhere.

  225. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    i think more non O people know who RDH was than O people at all. manhattan or not. MO or not.

    r herbie bomzer z”l hosted the begining discussions of the founding of JDL etc in the basement of his shul, which also hosted RMK hy”d levaya. was definitely influential in this regard. (and the memorials were held in another shul, on ocean ave, not ocean pkwy.)

  226. IH says:

    Emma — It’s unlike you to take cheap shots. You’re wrong by the way about the range of people I speak to about such matters.

  227. emma says:

    i did not mean that personally. sorry if it came off that way. just in my experience the world of which you speak, in which the hartman institute is well known, is indeed quite small relative to the rest of modern orthodoxy. similarly i don’t doubt that you have a variety of interlocutors, but i have experienced with other friends who hang out mostly in the frum-intellectual DN-style circles that they simply do not know about, or at least have not really processed, the trends in the rest of the mo world (say, that it would not be uncommon for most people at a shul event to be republicans).

  228. IH says:

    Abba — I was initially going to write something about how you need to get out of Brooklyn more often :-)

    My prediction remains that RDH z”l will end up being the most significant and influential Modern Orthodox thinker among the Rav’s students.

    The controversies that haunt people in their lives, often diminish over time — because their Torah is compelling and because many Modern Orthodox are searchers for compelling Torah whatever its source.

  229. emma says:

    I agree, btw, that RDH may end up extremely influential. That’s because he set up a lot of institutions that reach jews across israeli society…

  230. mycroft says:

    “Lawrence Kaplan on February 11, 2013 at 8:55 am

    Moshe and mycroft: Sure. The incident happened in the Summer of 1980 or 1981 when I met with the Rav in the Twersky home in Brookline to review my draft translation of Ish ha-Halakhah. ”

    Thanks-that the story happened way after RDH publicly changed makes the story very important

  231. Nachum says:

    Hmm. I recall R’ Rakeffet mentioning that the Rav first reached out to him after his son was killed in Lebanon, which would be post-1982. But OK.

    MMY: It moved to Ocean Avenue after a number of years. (Maybe after R’ Bomzer retired?) For quite a while it was on Ocean Parkway. The JDP was founded elsewhere, in Queens or Canarsie, I think. It’s in R’ Kahane’s book.

  232. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Nachum: You mean his son-in-law. Re the date, it is possible that my visit took place in 1983 after I returned to Canada from a year’s Sabbatical in Israel, when I went to see the Rav on several occasions.

 
 

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