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Bronx Teenager Knows Her Torah Trivia
Measured Insularity Does Not A Monk Make
Chief Rabbinate Instructs Hotels to Serve Meat Meal Shavuos Night
History Behind Touro Synagogue
Stadium Seating for Internet Morals
Reverse birthright for terror victims
Orthodox make kiddush Hashem on gay marriage
Koren Talmud iPad Version
Social Media for the Observant Jew
New Fine Art Gallery Opening in Crown Heights
NY Kosher Label Act Is Constitutional: Court
SALT Friday
Hundreds make pilgrimage to Tunisian synagogue
3 million (free) books on, PJ Library eyes expansion
Should Rubashkin Case Head to Supreme Court?
Washington’s Iconic Letter To Be Displayed
The Case of American Religious Zionism
Military Rabbinate dismisses State Comptroller’s report
Tel Aviv Municipality approves Saturday minibuses
Ultra-Orthodox Jews Shun Their Own for Reporting Child Sexual Abuse
Math whiz chooses small religious school in Queens over Ivy League
Lag BaOmer is not an Ashkenazic holiday
OU Statement on Obama’s Support for Same-Sex Marriage
Regarding a Jewish Educator’s Guide to Facebook Interaction
A New Song
So, You Want Your School To Be More Like Camp?
SALT Thursday
Matan Talmud program for women to close
Rackman: What My Father Learned From Mordecai Kaplan
The ‘Middle’ Movement Affirms, Updates Its Middle Path
Behind the Flaum settlement, a long campaign and a phone call
Survey discovers Israel’s digital divide
Moody’s downgrades Israel’s banking outlook
Podcast with R Gidon Rothstein
Hebrew U discovery reshapes understanding of Temple
SALT Wednesday
BJPA Reader’s Guide to Orthodox Judaism
Social media used to pressure Jewish husbands who refuse divorce
A Jewish Educator’s Guide to Facebook Interaction
Lag ba’Omer for Misnagdim
Hummus Maker Settles Wages Claim
R Gidon Rothstein responds to Matzav
Orthodox Man Sentenced 20 Years To Life For Child Abuse
Beastie Boy did not go to yeshiva
Rabbi Gerald Skolnik elected RA president
Hebrew Charter Schools Focus on Israel
Gershom Scholem, 30 Years On
Introducing the Jewish Museum of Natural History
NY Times selects Orthodox Jews as growing NY power group
SALT Tuesday
What About Me? A Blog Essay by a Frum Man With Complaints
The Dangers of the New Highway System
Thoughts on Celebrating Rabbi Priesand’s Ordination
The Mezuzah Needs Federal Protection
Acronyms and the Bible
Success Amid Secrets for Brooklyn D.A.
Our Zoroastrian Moment
Haredi institutions implicated in massive financial scheme
SALT Monday
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Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the founder, publisher and editor-in-chief of Torah Musings.

 
The opinions and facts here are presented solely by the author. Torah Musings assumes no responsibility for them. Please address religious questions to your rabbi.
 

210 Responses

  1. shaul shapira says:

    An arrest of a non charedi for indecency:

    [Please - only convictions and not arrests - Gil]

  2. IH says:

    Yes, awful news. But, when this happens in the Charedi world, does one get an immediate and unequivocal reaction such as:

    “[The suspect] is also a rabbinical student at Yeshiva University. The Forward quoted YU’s spokesman, Mayer Fertig, as saying that he was ‘saddened and dismayed’ by the charges.”

  3. joel rich says:

    The Orthodox community has been influenced by that moment as women seek to be Torah scholars and serve rabbinic functions as Rosh Kehila (Spiritual Leader of a congregation) or using other titles such as Rabbah or Maharat.
    =========================================
    I’m sure that the supporters of such functionaries appreciate this linkage,
    KT

  4. joel rich says:

    R’ Secunda’s conclusion could use some fleshing out, what exactly does he see as the implications of this work done in the “ivory tower”
    KT

  5. aiwac says:

    ‘R’ Secunda’s conclusion could use some fleshing out, what exactly does he see as the implications of this work done in the “ivory tower”’

    To say nothing about how to deal with it outside the ivory tower. I feel like his essay deserves a big “TO BE CONTINUED”.

  6. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Gil,
    What do you make of this artice on th eBeooklyn DA. It sounds like the there may be justification for what he is doing, but why then is even the agudah critical?

  7. ruvie says:

    aiwac – why a to be continued?
    this says it all: ” Nevertheless, now as then, there is no escaping the broader implications of research, even when it is conducted in the ivory tower of academic religious studies. Every comparison contains the seeds of judgment; every comparative act has the potential to become an explosive affair.”

    his and other researchers fleshing out = unpleasant realities that many in orthodoxy would have qualms with.

  8. aiwac says:

    Some explanation as to how to prevent it from becoming an explosive affair would have been nice.

  9. joel rich says:

    R’ Ruvie,
    Maybe, but if you ask folks like Dr. Elman and R Weider they will say iiuc that it does not impact halacha (I’ve spoken to a number of individuals to understand why, my summary of their answers is the halachic system doesn’t work like that). I suppose it might be one of those “unspoken” impacts (i.e. people become aware of it but never claim it has impact, it just does and is viewed as organic) which ties nicely to my note comment about Maharat et al above.
    KT

  10. ruvie says:

    r’ joel – “they will say iiuc that it does not impact halacha ” – is there anyone in orthodoxy says it should impact halacha? does it lead to a better understanding in the development of halacha – or is it hermeneutically sealed? but it may undermine some uniqueness to our religion if one can show what is borrowed from other religions – maybe that ius an issue people do not want to talk about openly.

  11. ruvie says:

    aiwac – “Some explanation as to how to prevent it from becoming an explosive affair would have been nice.: – and why would secunda care for that? the research takes him wherever it goes….he is not a rabbi or a posek. most answers will be deemed apologetics at best.

  12. aiwac says:

    “is there anyone in orthodoxy says it should impact halacha?”

    You’d be surprised.

    “but it may undermine some uniqueness to our religion if one can show what is borrowed from other religions”

    It goes deeper than that. One could (and some do) make the argument that pretty much all of Judaism is “borrowed” from somewhere.

  13. aiwac says:

    “and why would secunda care for that? the research takes him wherever it goes”

    OK, then I’d like to know how he prevents it from personally being explosive. I assume he’s intellectually honest enough for you.

  14. joel rich says:

    R’ Ruvie,
    Did the discovery of the meiri impact halacha? The Frankel edition of the Rambam?
    KT

  15. “What About Me? A Blog Essay by a Frum Man With Complaints”

    what a whiny rant. everytime i started to sympathize i was then turned off. he can’t learn torah on the train because he gets distracted by the trees whizzing by? come on.

    i can’t say i don’t identify with a lot of what he writes (e.g., working till death because of pension/401k issues), but i wonder about some things. during his calculation of how he spends daily hours and what he doesn’t have time to do i don’t recall (maybe i missed it reading quickly) an interest in spending time with children (or if one prefers, learning torah with them). this is my own biggest concern (followed by working till death).

  16. ruvie says:

    r’ joel – when i was younger i was told by my rebbe that the meiri discovery alone has 0 effect to halacha – i just assumed that its true till today. the frankel edition may have some effect – in many cases if a minhag is effected by a typo that is discovered later probably doesn’t – just like discovering new manuscripts of existing poskim and codes can too – as oppose to new seforim of rishonim. but i am an am haaretz in this area. please enlighten me.

  17. “What About Me? A Blog Essay by a Frum Man With Complaints”

    1) he drastically underestimates how much a MO household needs to make in a typical suburban NY community (118k?!)
    2) interesting question about learning torah vs. davening. personally and from what i strongly suspect of most others, davening is basically a waste of time
    3) particulars have changed, but being orthodox (or in pre-modern times, jewish) has always been expensive. and in general, financial instability (not just for jews) has been the norm for most of history. we generally use america 1950-2000 as our reference point for these matters, but it was an abberation.
    4) “Some community leaders appear to understand baal habatim only through the wealthy ones that host parlor meetings . . .” was an excellent point

  18. aiwac says:

    Abba,

    Is he right about the shalom bayit lectures? Or frivolous divorce?

  19. aiwac says:

    I think what we really need is to stop viewing baalei batim as second class. I’m personally mulling over learning for smicha – but I will always insist on being known as a great baalabos.

  20. aiwac says:

    “Did the discovery of the meiri impact halacha?”

    His views on Christians certainly did, at least for some. Here’s a very interesting analysis along those lines (in Hebrew, I’m afraid):

    http://www.bmj.org.il/files/1331292103800.pdf

  21. joel rich says:

    r’ joel – when i was younger i was told by my rebbe that the meiri discovery alone has 0 effect to halacha – i just assumed that its true till today. the frankel edition may have some effect – in many cases if a minhag is effected by a typo that is discovered later probably doesn’t – just like discovering new manuscripts of existing poskim and codes can too – as oppose to new seforim of rishonim. but i am an am haaretz in this area. please enlighten me.
    ==========================
    R’ Ruvie,
    A few comments:
    You may be an am haaretz in this area but I’m something much worse – a wannabe, so take everything I say with a considerable helping of salt.
    My understanding is that in the first generation of discovery of a new rishon (or of a new text for an existing one) the impact is nil as it will be for any area with the halacha has already been decided (for example R’ HS often talks about a tshuva of the rambam “recently” discovered which would have assered any use of time clocks on shabbat). After a while it may be implicitly or explicitly (on a logic basis if not on a direct quote basis) be used to make determinations in new shailot. IIUC no one undoes a R’ Chaim based on a Frankel text either.

    An interesting point to me is in the original system of darshening, this stare decisis like approach did not apply (i.e. a later sanhedrin could examine whatever it wanted and come up with new understandings)

    KT

  22. joel rich says:

    A friend of mine tells me he once was unburdening himself to a pulpit rabbi about how he wished he could spend more time learning but for work (this from a giver of a daf yomi shiur). The rabbi looked at him increduously and asked him which one of the 2 of them did he really think spent more time actually learning.
    KT

  23. ruvie says:

    aiwac – i am not sure… if no one else from the meiri’s time – till the finding of his work on avoda zarah and christianity – was of the opinion that its not az – could his teshuva over turn all the poskim previously? btw, the love his analysis of religion and his unique view of time and rereading the classical texts.
    that is not to say – as r’ joel points out – that a rabbi cannot use his work on a new teshuva that previously – question – was not ask.

  24. ruvie says:

    r’ joel – thank you for the correction. i was referring to your first part of effecting halacha – not able to over turn previous poskim on a decided matter from a new discovery.

  25. ruvie says:

    aiwac – correction – was of the opinion that christianity was AZ

  26. shaul shapira says:

    Just to re-snark:

    “The effect on the larger Jewish world of Rabbi Priesand’s ordination continues to be felt throughout Jewish life. The Orthodox community has been influenced by that moment as women seek to be Torah scholars and serve rabbinic functions as Rosh Kehila (Spiritual Leader of a congregation) or using other titles such as Rabbah or Maharat. Forty years ago, we couldn’t have envisioned that Orthodox women would demand their rightful role in synagogue leadership both at the lay and rabbinic levels – but it is happening bit by bit. This revolution was made possible by that holy moment of Rabbi Priesand’s ordination.”

    Compare to what R Gil wrote here:

    http://torahmusings.com/2010/08/open-orthodoxy-and-heterodoxy/

  27. aiwac says:

    Ruvie,

    As far as I know, no-one went as far as the Meiri when it came to hilchot goyim. There were lenient positions, but none as extensive as the Meiri.

  28. aiwac says:

    Shaul,

    I don’t see any progress in that direction on this side of the pond. If anything, there’s very little discussion of the issue.

  29. ruvie says:

    aiwac – certainly agree. but the jewish community in practice was already there by the time of discovery – he gave it the theological backbone.

  30. aiwac says:

    Ruvie,

    That’s neither here nor there. The Jewish community throughout the ages had many habits and practices. Some were accepted and some were emphatically and repeatedly rejected by Rabbinic authorities. May I return to the fact that while the Rambam and Chassidut were accepted – Karaism and Christianity were not. The same for individual acts and attitudes.

    I don’t believe the Meiri would have said what he said or at least gone as far as he did if he didn’t believe it to be true. I don’t know what you know about halachic history, but Rabbis are not rubber stamps of communal behavior; they have much more agency than that.

    Are they influenced by it? Yes. Are they mere pawns of this influence? No.

  31. ruvie says:

    Aiwac – again, i do not think the finding of the meiri over turned anything – that was my point. is there a disagreement here? i do believe any major posek would believe what they say is true. True rabbis are not rubber stamps but it seems from history – at least according to katz, ta-shma and others – that communities themselves have a lot to do with what changes are acceptable and which are not – their intuitive action. there is a wide area between influenced and pawns – influence does not describe enough the reality of history.

  32. aiwac says:

    “i do not think the finding of the meiri over turned anything”

    I didn’t say that – I said it expanded the היתר beyond what it was.

    “True rabbis are not rubber stamps but it seems from history – at least according to katz, ta-shma and others – that communities themselves have a lot to do with what changes are acceptable and which are not – their intuitive action.”

    I don’t see how this is relevant. I’m talking about what Rabbis considered acceptable and why.

  33. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    zoroastrian article should mention that zorastrians were notoriously vicious anti jewish (even more than romans, whose anti semitism varied with the times, based on their internal political considerations.)

    today , we are somewhat allied with them, due to enemy of my enemy (shiite persian govt) is my friend considerations.

    2. moshe s — i think the forward is overblowing a side comment an aguda rep made once, to reflect an official aguda position (and mentioning it in several articles on the issue.) the aguda is too smart to not deny it as an official position. esp since it reflects an elitist attitude they dont have to promote in the forward, etc. (note — ‘bama’s campaign using “forward” term with similar logo. forward is not sending a cease and desist letter. after all, their views are compatible and it gives them promotion.

    3. ” “Some community leaders appear to understand baal habatim only through the wealthy ones that host parlor meetings . . .” was an excellent point”

    speaking of elitists.

  34. aiwac says:

    “zoroastrian article should mention that zorastrians were notoriously vicious anti jewish (even more than romans, whose anti semitism varied with the times, based on their internal political considerations.”

    I thought the Persians were relatively tolerant?

  35. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    aiwac — zoro’s were diff than “reg” persians. zoro’s refused to allow belief in one god (its more complicated than that stmt), therefore forbade jews to say “shma”, leading to our saying “shma” in kedusha on shabat (to make a long story short.)

    i guess you can say non-zoro persians were (somewhat) more tolerant.

    2. to post tomorow — http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-woman-arrested-for-denying-husband-divorce-1.428418

  36. Steve Brizel says:

    “What About Me” is IMO what happens when one views making a living as opposed to learning 24/7 or being in Klei Kodesh as Bdieved at best. It is no small wonder that there is a large number of contemporary darshanim, etc, whose orientation is geared towards being “mchazek” men who are working who are longer full time in the yeshiva world. All I can say is that my RY always have encouraged all of us who entered the work world to be Mkadesh Shem Shamayim therein, no matter how difficult, while simultaneously encouraging us to being Kovea Itim LaTorah, and striving to go to Ovdei HaShem.

  37. IH says:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4226125,00.html

    “Late-night political drama: Early elections averted as Likud, Kadima agree on unity government. Shaul Mofaz appointed deputy PM, to take part in key security meetings. Coalition to promote haredi draft”

  38. Shlomo says:

    2) interesting question about learning torah vs. davening. personally and from what i strongly suspect of most others, davening is basically a waste of time

    Or maybe learning Torah is basically a waste of time? I personally find that more of my shnaim mikra learning than my davening time feels wasted. As for what I learn on the way to work, it mostly goes in one ear (eye?) and out the other. In fact I’m on Hirhurim right now on the way to work because I’m tired today and my learning wouldn’t even go in the first ear. I don’t think all this is unique to me, the low investment to value of daf yomi shiurim for many people is legendary.

    I do much more meaningful learning too sometimes, but the key point seems to be, *it is not scheduled*. It’s more like whenever I have free time, mostly on weekends, and something is on my mind that I want to investigate.

    if no one else from the meiri’s time – till the finding of his work on avoda zarah and christianity – was of the opinion that its not az – could his teshuva over turn all the poskim previously?

    I remember hearing once that most of the rishonei ashkenaz in fact agreed with the Meiri on this, and that it could be demonstrated from several tosfots. Am I making this up?

  39. Shlomo says:

    “the low investment to value”

    Of course I meant something like
    “the high investment to value ratio”

  40. Nachum says:

    MeMedinat, I’m sure others more knowledgeable than I can contribute better, but let me point out that either Prof. Kaplan (here) or Prof. Schiffman (elsewhere) (I’m mising up “Lawrences,” I know) pointed out that the “Shema” thing simply never happened. You are reciting popular myth (half-based on some statements of Chazal, perhaps) as history.

    The main attempted defense of your original point doesn’t work either. There were no “regular Persians” as opposed to Zoroastrians. Zoroastrianism was the state religion of the Empire, widely practiced. Indeed, that’s the whole point of the piece. Even today, there is widespread overt and covert practice of the religion in Iran, even if the actual number of adherents is low- for example, the New Year’s celebrations in Iran and Afghanistan are Zoroastrian. The mullahs, to a certain extent, have given up trying to suppress this.

  41. Nachum says:

    This is both incredibly hilarious and incredibly sad:

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/rambam-s-tomb-to-get-high-tech-facelift-against-the-sage-s-own-wishes-1.428849

    Can anyone cite the Mishna Torah citation in the article?

  42. JB says:

    I very much related to many parts of the What About Me piece, though the solutions suggested may have been off base.

    I remember one of my rabbeim in yeshiva digging into us that we should be sad that we had to read the NY Times everyday in preparation for job interviews. We should yearn to stay in the torah world and use every opportunity to stay in it and stay connected to it while working. While I was very close with this Rebbe, I took significant offense at this particular mussar shmooze. 90% of the guys in the room were going to go into the professional world and break their teeth to hopefully get through the day as shomrei hallacha. This wasn’t the time to berate, it was a time to build. Yeshivas have to spend more time celebrating Kahati and the many gedolim (tanaim, amoraim, rishonim and achronim) who made a real parnassah and learned. It we set ourselves up as either/or, we’re missing the point.

  43. NAHUM:

    “Can anyone cite the Mishna Torah citation in the article?”

    i can’t cite a MT source, but does the 5th principle in the peirsuh on perek chelek mention humna as well as angelic intermediaries?

    SHLOMO:

    i only have a few seconds

    for many/most shnayim mikra is not learning. it’s a meaningless and rote ritual (much like davening).

    (you mentioned daf yomi. i lack that type of commitment and thus it’s not my place to comment on it.)

  44. MJ says:

    RE: “What About Me”

    The seeds of an Orthodox socialist resurgence. Seriously, if there was ever a good argument for why modern capitalism is bad for the neshama, this is it.

  45. IH says:

    Nachum: הלכות אבל פרק ד

    ד ומציינין את הקברות, ובונין נפש על הקבר; והצדיקים, אין בונים להם נפש על קברותיהן–דבריהם הם זכרונם. ולא יפנה אדם לבקר הקברות.

    http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e404.htm

  46. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Nachum: It was I who pointed out here that Prof. Ezra Fleischer in an article on the origins and purpose of the Kedushah cogently argues that the supposed Zoroastrian ban on reciting the Shema never happened. He explains in the article why the practice arose to recite the Shema in the Musaf Kedushah in light of his analysis of the Kedushah’s origins and purpose.

  47. IH says:

    And the link to the NYT piece as described in the linked Israel Hayom piece is:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/05/06/nyregion/the-powers-of-new-york.html

  48. Nachum says:

    Thank you, IH.

  49. Nachum says:

    Prof. Kaplan: Thank you, and sorry for the mix-up. I think the reason was that Prof. Schiffman, in his introduction to YU’s volume on the Haftarot, cites the “forbidden to read Torah” hypothesis as the origin of *that* practice, but he rejects it as well.

  50. Moshe Shoshan says:

    I remember Gerald Skolnick as “Mr. Skolnick” before he went to JTS when he worked in the Ramaz lower school in the 1970′s. perhaps Thanbo recalls what his job was.

  51. MJ says:

    I get that he takes umbrage at someone dismissing his work without listening to the interview, but Rabbi Dr. Rothstein sure is touchy about people using his full and correct title.

    Mikol melamdei hiskalti indeed – first and foremost my father who typically asked not to be identified as Rabbi, Dr., or Rabbi Dr. – I have always been suspicious of people who are so makpid with their title that they make it a point of public outrage when they are slighted by its absence.

  52. IH says:

    Prof. Kaplan — could you provide the link (or reference) to the article you mentioned at 8:15 am?

    Meantime, I have found http://isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic540549.files/Ganfi%20Political%20Social%20and%20Economic%20History%20of%20Babylonia.pdf that may also be of interest to others.

  53. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Nachum: No problem. You put me in good company. The origin of the Haftarah hypothesis is, indeed, another example of the same thing. When you don’t know the origins of a practice, you refer to some supposed persecution.

  54. from the acronym article

    “Yet Hebrew has many more of them than other languages, something that is partly due to its being written without most vowels”

    is this reflected in other vowelless languages as well?

    i once read that the proliferation of acronyms was a space saving measure when manuscript production (and even early printing) was an expensive endeavor. but then does one see acronyms in the texts of other languages as well?

  55. IH says:

    Moshe — see http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/rabbis_world/feeling_kehilat_jeshuruns_pain

    When I was in high school, the Upper School of Ramaz, the fine Jewish day school associated with KJ, was still housed in the building adjacent to the synagogue (where the Lower School is now). I would regularly travel there from my home in New Jersey for varsity basketball games and social events. My years as a camper at Massad Bet regularly brought me to KJ to visit summer friends, so many of whom were students at Ramaz. Years later, when I worked at Ramaz for two years in the Primary School, just a few blocks away on East 82nd Street, my wife and I lived on Manhattan’s Upper East Side and davened at KJ on Shabbat mornings.

  56. aiwac says:

    “The seeds of an Orthodox socialist resurgence. Seriously, if there was ever a good argument for why modern capitalism is bad for the neshama, this is it.”

    Milton Friedman was right: no other group has benefited historically from capitalism like the Jews and no other group has fought it as vigorously.

  57. Nachum says:

    abba: Acronyms began in English around World War I. (Need for conciseness on the battlefied.) Very, very, few, if any, predate then. All the supposed etymologies involving acronyms are myths.

  58. “Introducing the Jewish Museum of Natural History”

    well now we know where the next round of protests/rioting will take place

    “Beastie Boy did not go to yeshiva”

    thanks for clearing that up!

    MJ:

    agree in general, but ommission of the title is relevant in this case

    NACHUM:

    english isn’t a vowelless language

    but as far as english goes, i would have guessed the role of the telegraph

  59. IH says:

    Nachum — given the use of acronyms in Latin going back to Roman times, I find that acronyms began in English around World War I hard to believe. I suspect a more nuanced point was made in the source you are remembering.

  60. IH says:

    Yasher Koach to Uri L’Tzedek:

    “‘We’re glad that Flaum’s did the right thing and we encourage customers to support them,’ he [R. Ari Hart] said. ‘It’s delicious hummus.’”

  61. Rafael Araujo says:

    Personally, I love their tuna products, especially their tuna with shallots and hungarian tuna!

  62. IH says:

    On the Sh’ma in Kedusha, Elbogen (pp. 56-57) associates it with persecution in the Byzantine Empire, but has a long footnote on pp. 401-402 which includes a dissenting view in a 1928 article by Y. Bergman “who sees the explanation of prayers and other practices by persecution, which is very common in the tradition, as a farfetched explanation of the aggadic type.”

  63. Nachum says:

    IH: Re: Acronyms. Could be. I’m thinking of “explanations” of words like “golf,” “posh,” etc.

  64. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    actually, flaum’s isnt that wellknown for hummus. it (was) known for herring, but i guess schwartz’s now has that title.

    also, additions to kedusha date to later period (which i assume the artucle covers.)

    either way, the zoro’s were still historically notoriously anti jewish, that the article should note. as for being the state religion, think of it as a form of santaria, which the RC church tolerates, reluctantly. except that the ayatollahs, etc have the power of the death penalty, death squads, etc.

    social media — jts rabbi pasken s that social media is excessive improper pressure. i guess he agrees with the RDE’s.

    at least the article mentions that once you bring the public pressure, you lose your strategic pressure points. and i have seen numerous cases where they put the issue in public, before adequately trying other strategies.

    i guess they feel time is of the essence. but the legal divorce is usually not of the essence.

    daf yomi — a charedi cousin once said (before daf yomi got very popular) “dont dare learn more than a (45 minute) hour.” i guess if thats all your learning, thats one thing; but if you miss a day, they almost never give a intro, they just go straight into the middle of a sugya.

  65. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    IH and Nachum ( and others): The article of Fleischer is “The Kedushah of the Amidah (and Other Kedushot)” in Tarbiz 67:3, 1998.

  66. IH says:

    Thank you Prof. Kaplan. Added to my library list. In the meantime, I see there is also a to and fro between Profs. Fleischer and Langer in Prooftexts which also looks interesting:

    http://bc.academia.edu/RuthLanger/Papers/1221244/Considerations_of_Method_A_Response_to_Ezra_Fleischer

  67. shaul shapira says:

    [Please - only convictions and not arrests - Gil]

    Er, what’s this?
    ▪ Haredi institutions implicated in massive financial scheme

    Is there a difference between people and institutions? The rules page isn’t all that clear.

  68. IH says:

    MMhY — It’s the “Sonny & Joe’s” brand Hummus (owned by Flaum). Best packaged herring I’ve been able to find in NYC is “Blue Hill Bay” Spicy Matjas and I recently (finally) found a source for fresh raw herring for home curing — the Pura Vida fishmonger at the Union Square Greenmarket on Fridays.

  69. IH says:

    On the exchange between Profs. Langer and Fleischer, all 3 documents are available at http://bc.academia.edu/RuthLanger/Papers (her review “Revisiting Early Rabbinic Liturgy: The Recent Contributions of Ezra Fleischer”, his response “Controversy” and her reply as linked above).

  70. mycroft says:

    Rabbi Gerald Skolnick new president of RA is a YU grad.
    Will YU put out a press release ?

  71. IH says:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/nyregion/among-russian-immigrants-in-new-york-affinity-for-republicans.html

    “Assemblyman Alec Brook-Krasny, a Democrat and the first Soviet immigrant to win elective office in New York, said that despite the antipathy many Russian immigrants expressed toward state programs, a large proportion of his compatriots worked in hospitals, nursing homes and social-service agencies that received heavy government financing, and that elderly Russians in particular were among the beneficiaries of those programs. But the local businessmen who profit from consumption by those wage earners and public-benefit recipients do not understand the link, he said: they simply want low taxes and believe ‘the less government, the better.’ “

  72. Nachum says:

    Yes, IH, you’re beginning to catch on to the insiduous plan: Get as many people as possible dependent on government, and the socialists will always win. (Or hope to. Some people rise above self-interest.)

  73. IH says:

    :-)

    But, more likely it’s “get the government out of my Medicare”.

  74. IH says:

    And as Podhoretz will be happy to explain to you, it’s the Jews who vote Democrat who rise above self-interest.

  75. mor says:

    Interesting that the JTS rabbi is more concerned about the possibility of an invalid get than the modern orthodox rabbi in the article about using facebook to pressure husbands.

  76. joel rich says:

    r’mycroft,
    class of ’73?
    KT

  77. aiwac says:

    “The first hundred pages of the book [The Meaning of God in Modern Jewish Religion] are apikorsus (heresy), but after that it’s brilliant.”

    From this we learn two things about R. Rackman:

    1) He took the idea of learning from everyone seriously.

    2) He thought there was such a thing as apikorsut.

    Very interesting essay.

  78. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    The article about the Matan Talmud Program frustratingly does not say why it is closing.

  79. emma says:

    Apparently $$. Don’t know more details.

  80. IH says:

    http://jewishmom.com/2012/05/09/rabbi-shteinman-to-frum-parents-stop-being-snobs-5-minute-important-video/

    “But I’m not only posting this because I’ve been the victim of school snobbism. I am posting this because I AM also a school snob! I also don’t want my children’s schools to accept kids from families that I perceive as “less religious” because I fear they won’t be a good influence on my kids and on the religious atmosphere of the school…And watching this video makes me recognize that my attitude is flawed and based on ego rather than the yirat Shamayim it’s posing as.”

  81. aiwac says:

    I don’t understand why this is such a disaster – today there are other alternatives for women’s gemara study. Tragic, yes. Catastrophic, no.

  82. emma says:

    aiwac, what comparable rigourous program for advanced postgraduate study do you have in mind?
    Matan is, in my view, the gold standard. Perhaps “catastrophe” is an overstatement but it is a big deal.

  83. joel rich says:

    If it is $, then it would seem to mean that the community as a whole doesn’t view it as a big deal?
    KT

  84. emma says:

    r joel, that’s precisely why it is especially sad for those who do…

  85. Hirhurim says:

    It’s sad when opportunities to study Torah become more limited but somehow the Torah always manages to survive.

  86. emma says:

    Gil, I am trying to decide if you are being dismissive or not. What you say is true but it is not really relevant. Other women’s programs have come and gone, fizzling for organic reasons, and that was sad in the way you describe. It is different when a uniquely serious opportunity ends abruptly, and interested sudents are left with no comparable options. It’s like if a thriving yeshivah, the only one in a particular city, closed abruptly. “The Torah” could survive that but it would be more than generically sad for the residents of that town…

  87. Hirhurim says:

    It’s like if a thriving yeshivah, the only one in a particular city, closed abruptly. “The Torah” could survive that but it would be more than generically sad for the residents of that town…

    This is precisely what I intended. It’s terrible for a few dozen people but in general, life goes on. That’s what I’ve said when post-high school yeshivas close also.

  88. aiwac says:

    “It is different when a uniquely serious opportunity ends abruptly, and interested sudents are left with no comparable options”

    People will find a way to renew Torah learning. Who knows? They might even outdo Matan.

  89. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: Would you say this if RIETS suddenly closed on account of money, or Lakewood, or Gush, etc.

  90. aiwac says:

    Prof. Kaplan,

    1) Is Matan really so central to women’s learning today?

    2) If RIETS, Lakewood, Gush &c had closed when they were still in their infancy or just beginning to make an impact, it would indeed be a tragedy. But today, there are many who can pick up the slack if they were to fall through (at the least the latter two).

  91. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    aiwac: I don’t know. Emma, whose views I respect, seems to think so. My point is that Gil’s comment about Torah always surviving, while true, is beside the point if the institution in question is important or central enough.

  92. Hirhurim says:

    The demise of any institution is sad. Yet even Volozhin’s closing was not the end of Torah study, nor would any contemporary yeshiva. The more who benefit from it, the sadder the closing. But it’s hardly a tragedy.

  93. emma says:

    Listen, I don’t know what will happen. But Matan has been putting out first rate scholars for a while – who in turn are teaching in a lot of places (high schools and seminaries). Hopefully something will fill the void.
    I think the reaction also stems from R. Joel’s point above – that if there is no communal will to keep this going then can we really continue to convince ourselves that the orthodox community values women scholars?

  94. aiwac says:

    Emma,

    I believe you answered your own question – there is already a large cadre of first-rate scholars teaching in various institutions. There is supply and there is demand in the Orthodox community for female talmidot chachamot. Matan’s demise does not bear on this reality.

  95. Moshe Shoshan says:

    ” It’s terrible for a few dozen people but in general, life goes on. ”
    Gil,
    you dont seem to get it. this is not about the survival of Torah, its about the future of advanced womens Torah study. Precisely because it is still in its infancy, the loss of one high quality program is most significant. There is no garuntee that others will pick up the slack. Of course if you dont value such study, its no big deal

  96. Hirhurim says:

    Of course if you dont value such study, its no big deal

    I’m neutral on the subject

  97. aiwac says:

    Moshe,

    Still in its infancy? Programs have been around for, what, twenty years?

  98. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    aiwac: In Jewish terms 20 years is just a beginning.

    I also am concerned about what this says about the modern Orthodox community’s commitment to advanced Torah education for women. Tt would be nice if we knew more about the reasons for the closing. I assume money, but the authors of the article give reasons.

    Gil: Perhaps I should not be surprised about your “neutrality,” but, what can I say, it upsets me.

  99. Steve Brizel says:

    I gather that Matan’s well respected program in Tanach is unaffected by the closure, and that there are other venues for womens’ Talmud study such as Nishmat, Migdal Oz, Midreshet Lindenbaum ( aka “Brovenders) and YU’s GPAT and Drisha are hardly starving for applicants and students who view such programs as important and essential to their world view as a Bas Torah. Viewing the closing of such a program as catastrophic or worse ignores the facts on the ground that Matan was not the only such program.

  100. aiwac says:

    “In Jewish terms 20 years is just a beginning”

    I guess I have more faith in the power of innovation and people. I don’t think the many women who graduated will let the women’s learning project die, if nothing else. Heaven help any movement that is entirely dependent on a single institution.

  101. Steve Brizel says:

    Larry Kaplan wrote:

    “I also am concerned about what this says about the modern Orthodox community’s commitment to advanced Torah education for women.”

    Your comment would make more sense either if no other such programs existed or if MO young women did not spend a year post high school in Israel. As far as $ issues are concerned, one would be interested in knowing the impact of the recession on learning in Israel in general. It is amazing in these economic circumstances that so many yeshivos and schools are still running strong

  102. emma says:

    “other venues for womens’ Talmud study such as Nishmat, Migdal Oz, Midreshet Lindenbaum ( aka “Brovenders) and YU’s GPAT and Drisha are hardly starving for applicants ”

    Steve and aiwac, If you think these are all the same, or that most of them offer what MaTaN does, or that they are all plodding along happily without incident, you do not know enough about this matter to comment. I am only peripherally connected to many of them, but at most two of those programs approach the level of learning of MaTaN in the context of a multi-year, post-college, Talmud (vs. primarily halachah lemaaseh) program.

    Aiwac, I am not worried that the supply of women qualified to teach high school gemara is going to dry up any time soon. If anything, supply there may outpace demand, sadly. The issue is, what should a woman who wants to be more qualified than that do? Is there anywhere she can go and learn for many (or even several) years in order to approach higher leagues of scholarship? MaTaN’s prgram is one of a hadnful of such places, and arguably the best. Perhaps time will tell and this is not a step back, but it creates at the very least significant uncertainty as to whether the supply of high-caliber female scholars will continue, and also whether the community actually has any demand for such scholars. (If it did, and if this is really about money, I would hope something short of closure could be worked out.)

    And that it could just close – like that, without any formal statement or explanation from MaTaN that I can see, is just sad. I’m not sure there’s more to say without more information, which I hope will be forthcoming in some sort of journalistic outlet at some point.

  103. aiwac says:

    emma,

    I’ve no doubt that Matan’s passing is a blow. But I have faith – in the women who learn and in the MO community of which I am a member. It shall not die.

  104. Steve Brizel says:

    Emma-take a look at Matan’s faculty. Many faculty members also teach at Migdal Oz, Lindenbaum, etc. You are correct in noting the distinction between Matan, YU’s GPATs , Drisha, and such programs such as Migdal Oz and Lindenbaum, which are geared for the “gap year” student.

    I agree with Aiwac to this extent-women, whether they attend BJJ, Michlala , Matan, or anywhwere along the spectrum of womens’ educational institutions, regardless of whether they study Talmud or not, are far more educated in Tanach, Halacha LMaaseh and Jewish history than their parents, or their brothers, where, all too often, Talmud is studied with no relationship to Halacha Lmaaseh, and where most talmidim lack their sisters’ knowledge of Tanach and Jewish history.

  105. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    “are hardly starving for applicants and students who view such programs as important and essential to their world view as a Bas Torah.” — steve b

    but does that bring in $?

    a business associate of mine who’se wife is a guidance counselor at a girls high school tells me the boys programs are very competitive (subject to flipping out, immaturity, etc (which affects the girls programs, too) ) but the girls programs are full tuition, litle / no scholarships, etc ( = not too competitive.)

    at the advanced level, its prob more exagerated.

  106. Steve Brizel says:

    For those interested in some inspiration about raising a special needs child, see the annexed link. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/jon-will-40-years-and-going-with-down-syndrome/2012/05/02/gIQAdGiNxT_story.html

  107. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    aiwac and Steve: No doubt the authors of the article (understandably) exaggerated somewhat by terming Matan’s closing a “tragedy.” But, at least in my view, it is a cause for serious concern.

  108. Steve Brizel says:

    In a letter to the NYJW, Joseph Kaplan wrote:
    The Jewish Week, in its otherwise thoughtful editorial “Taking on Title VI” (May 4), misses the mark a bit in framing this as the question: “now that we have the right to initiate federal suits against anti-Jewish or anti-Israel activity on campus, should we use it, or will it have a chilling effect on academic freedom?”

    It’s not an either/or question; rather, the question is whether we should use that right wisely, focused only on those activities that are truly anti-Semitic as some are, or should we follow the blunderbuss approach of the Zionist Organization of America and use it against activity that, even if nasty, rude or, indeed, even vicious, is part and parcel of the rough-and-tumble political and ideological battles that are, thankfully, protected by the First Amendment. Of course, even if such activities do not fall within Title VI, nothing prevents college presidents from exercising their First Amendment rights, as their leadership responsibilities should demand, by publicly decrying such activities when they fall on the wrong side of civility and respect”

    Even if one can debate the tactics of when to resort to litigation predicated on a violation of Title VI,or if anti Semitism should be viewed solely as loooking for anti Semitic grafitti or explicit acts of anti Semitism, as opposed to considering the ideological, cultural and intellectual roots, theories and consequences as equally important, it strikes me as naive to expect university presidents to decry such activities since many view the same as absolutely protected under the First Amendment, and see no harm today, as many Ivy League presidents in the 1930s, in welcoming apologists and advocates of anti Semitism to their campuses.Simply stated, foxes make poor guards for chicken coops.

  109. Steve Brizel says:

    IIRC, several Columbia students who were subjected to viciously anti Semitic and anti Israel comments in classes met with an administrative stone wall of silence when they complained “in house” at Columbia, and had no choice but to drop a class that they thought was about Middle East studies, as opposed to being a sandbox for a professor’s anti Semitic and anti Israeli posturing.That fact led the students to use the web and other sources as means of bringing the conduct of their professors to the greater public. IMO, it would be a mistake to limit anti Semitism to postings of grafiti and similar incidents, when, in fact, it is a far more powerful presence in academia than on the right.

  110. jar says:

    Why, you ask, is Matan’s closing this program a big deal? Yes, there are quality women scholars out there already, and yes, Matan is a small institution, especially in the face of the myriad yeshivot for men. But that is precisely the problem. Matan, being the gold standard for women’s learning, has taken on the challenge of giving women access to high-level learning and from there widening the scope of women’s learning through the scholars it produces. There are not many places for women to learn gemara on a high-level, and if that is not happening, it will cease to happen on any level, eventually. In any event, even if Matan has produced many quality scholars, that does not mean their goal is achieved and it is not a loss for the community–no one’s career will last forever, and the community needs to replenish and even grow this cadre of scholars who can teach and inspire women growing up and learning in this age.

  111. a matan student says:

    Why the closing of matan was described as a tragedy:
    The women who learn in Matan exhibit a love of and a passion for Torah learning and seek to continue in this realm, beyond a one or two year shana ba’aretz program. They seek a setting which will advance them as Torah scholars, teachers, and community leaders, and of course as Ovdot Hashem. It is fairly clear that the best setting in which to do this is a structured program that will provide them with adequate tools and opportunities, and teachers. There are other shana aleph/bet programs and programs with a different focus (for example the yoetzet program in Nishmat, or the Halacha Scholars program in Lindenbaum) but Matan filled a unique role in offering ADVANCED (ie beyond one or two years) TALMUD STUDY to women. These women are the future leaders of our communities and they will no longer be provided with the tools which they need to reach their potential. Indeed, the program closing is at least for these women, but also for the community at large, a great loss.

  112. Shalom Rosenfeld says:

    From the Zionism article:
    “Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, who succeeded his father as head of RIETS in 1941.”

    -Huh?! I thought neither of them ever held a formal title other than magid shiur. (Or “one rosh yeshiva among many.”)

  113. Steve Brizel says:

    For an important view re Mesirah and its lack of application to the American law enforcement agencies, which clearly states a contrary view to the view of a leader of Agudah on the subject, see the annexed link http://www.torahweb.org/audioFrameset.html#audio=rsch_120306
    as well as many other shiurim at YUTorah,

  114. Steve Brizel says:

    See also this article http://torahmusings.com/2010/12/reporting-abuse/ One wonders whether we weill ever see or hear of an Asifah dedicated to telling the same audience that fears of reporting such incidents based on the view that American law enforcement agencies are the same as the Czar’s police or worse for the purposes of Mesirah has no halachic basis, and that Gdolei Talmidei Chachamim have told anyone who asks them in such circumstances to go to the police.

    Once again, the NY Times article reveals conduct that illustrates the misunderstanding of the fundeamental meaning of Chilul HasHem-the defense of the conduct of the perpretrator as opposed to the act perpetrated by the accused.

  115. IH says:

    Regarding a Supreme Court appeal of Rubashkin’s sentencing: be careful what you wish for. In my view, renewed scrutiny of his crimes will not be helpful to the American Orthodox community in general; and to the Kashrut business in particular.

  116. Tal Benschar says:

    IMHO, it is very unlikely that the Supreme Court will take the appeal. (Not technically an appeal — it is a petition for a writ of certiorari, essentially a request that teh Court grant review.) There is no legal issue that stands out in the case that needs to be resolved, and that is generally what the Court grants review on. That he got an overly harsh sentence and that the judge maybe should have recused herself are not the types of issues the Court is generally interested in.

  117. Joseph Kaplan says:

    ““Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, who succeeded his father as head of RIETS in 1941.”

    -Huh?! I thought neither of them ever held a formal title other than magid shiur. (Or “one rosh yeshiva among many.”)”

    You’re right as a matter of formal title (although the Rav, at least, was also a Professor of Philosophy and the holder of a chair). However, anyone who ever studied in RIETS while the Rav and his father were teaching there knows that the statement in the Zionism article is, as a practical matter, absolutely true.

  118. joel rich says:

    The new song sounds like the song I was sung by my parents and teachers and I tried to sing to my kids.
    KT

  119. Steve Brizel says:

    I think that Tal Benschar is correct with respect to minimal chances of the Supreme Court granting certiorari in the Rubashkin case.When considering the chances of the Rubashkin case being heard by the Supreme Court, one nmust always consider how many or few cases the court decides it wishes to hear, especially other cases in the US District Court and Circuit of Appeals where the case in question was tried and then appealed to.

  120. Steve Brizel says:

    Re Mesirah, and the common misunderstanding as to its being used as a basis for not complaining to American criminal justice and similar authorities, see http://torahmusings.com/2007/01/should-i-call-police-ii/.

  121. IH says:

    Bring your own Siddur to the Kotel…

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4225402,00.html

    “A recent examination of communal prayer books in the Western Wall shows large numbers of fecal bacteria, a contamination that far exceeds the normal rate.

    The contamination was found in books both from the women’s section and the men’s section. Still, the Western Wall’s rabbi argues that the blame is solely on the women that tend to hold the books close to their faces and shed tears.”

  122. aiwac says:

    Came across this article, thought it might spark some interesting discussion:

    http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/why-jews-hate-guns.htm

  123. aiwac says:

    I realize the tone is incendiary but the question is a good one.

  124. IH says:

    Interesting that he seems to keep his “The Gun Rabbi” persona compartmentalized from his other Rabbinic roles, e.g.: http://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=100798

    I see there’s also a YouTube of an interview with him by NRA News (which seems to avoid showing him in either photo or video, but maybe that’s tzniyiut on his part :-))

    Does he pack a gun to work? Goldman, Sachs is a rough and tumble kinda place…

  125. aiwac says:

    Hmm. Does the RCA generally try to maintain the position of a non-partisan organization?

  126. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    military rabbinate article — mistitled. they’re just not interested in “education”. but when they bring in outside orgs to do such education, we hear cries of “kfiyah datit” ( = forcing religion). so the rabbinate decides to sit this out, and the “mevaker medinah” ( = comptroller) critices. but “kfiyah datit” on womens singing (not that this is my position) in reverse, is not objectionable.

    as for the siddurim — check your own shul’s.

    camp — yes. lets turn our yeshivot into camps. no / little learning, etc. pasrents will approve. (though maybe we should bring rabbi “b” to teach proper gun practices.)

    djerba, tunisia — its also a big “singles” scene.

    internet asifa — not only is there a ball game that day, its “jewish heritage day”.

  127. IH says:

    The Ha’aretz report on the Khirbet Qeiyafa archaeological find has a little more information than the linked JPost article: http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/archaeological-find-stirs-debate-on-david-s-kingdom-1.429087

  128. Charlie Hall says:

    From the OU statement:

    ” Jewish law is unequivocal in opposing same sex relationships. ”

    I’ve seen nothing in the Noachide laws that would prohibit same sex relationships between non-Jewish women. Anyone have a source otherwise?

  129. “Interesting that he seems to keep his “The Gun Rabbi” persona compartmentalized from his other Rabbinic roles, e.g.: http://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=100798

    interesting, how many others have memberships in both rca and agudas harabbonim? (although agudas harabbonim originally anti- rca-type rabbis, today they’re probably desperate for members)

    “He is currently learning toward another semicha in Hilchos Shabbos.”
    :)

  130. Charlie Hall says:

    “Does the RCA generally try to maintain the position of a non-partisan organization?”

    Not just generally, but always. Otherwise it would lose its tax exemption.

  131. IH says:

    Given how much airtime has been allowed for not-strictly-Jewish/Torah politics, I thought I’d share an interesting piece by the BBC’s impressive (see her Wikipedia entry for credentials Economics Editor Stephanie Flanders: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17954184

  132. Nachum says:

    IH: What a ridiculous argument. Of course an economy will “grow” if government spending is out of control. That doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.

    Abba: Check out the previous post there for answers to your questions. (Pictures, no, yes.)

    Charlie: I have a great idea! Go to the homosexualists lobby and tell them you’re all in favor of lesbians marrying, not gay men! See how far you’ll get.

    Really, that argument is so old and tired, one would think you had a hidden agenda in promoting it.

    I agree with the gun dude 100%. I just always thought that the RCA only accepted active rabbis.

  133. mycroft says:

    “I just always thought that the RCA only accepted active rabbis.”
    similar to Nachum I thought the RCA required that a member when becoming a member-obviously they don’t kick out retirees- have his primary occupation as a Rabbi which includes mechanchim etc-I know moonlighters who have have told me that they couldn’t get in.

  134. IH says:

    The Crown Hights Art Gallery story is disturbing. This psragraph, in particular:

    For Pultman, it was straight-forward to recognize that Hassidic art’s time had arrived. He saw that many Holocaust survivors’ children had achieved considerable financial success. They were building large, beautiful homes but had nothing with which to fill the walls. His mission for the past 20 years has been to educate Jews about fine Jewish art.

    In other words, this is not about art as a spiritual or creative force, but just shallow consumerism.

  135. NACHUM:

    prof. david berger is not an active rabbi but has been a member of the RCA (and an active member)
    on the other hand, didn’t gil once say his application was in administrative limbo?

    pictures are nice, but that’s not that’s not enough. what type of translation, commentaries, notes, etc.? i.e., there is a gold standard out there (whether one likes it or not), how is koren different/better than the artscroll shas?

    IH:

    “The Crown Hights Art Gallery story is disturbing . . . In other words, this is not about art as a spiritual or creative force, but just shallow consumerism.”

    what’s so disturbing?
    1) fine art costs money. a lot of it.
    2) you think the non-jewish oriented galleries, dealers, auctioneers, etc. are altruists who want to make the world a prettier place?

  136. joel rich says:

    R’IH.
    This and the WSJ on the internet are reminders of what I call the WSJ test that I try to teach newbies at my day job, what would an objective reader conclude if they read of the circumstances, your advice and the actions taking place, if they read about it on the front page of the WSJ.
    KT

  137. IH says:

    Abba — your point is perfectly valid, except that the customers of this art gallery have established themselves as a separate holy culture specifically so they are not polluted by modern secular values such as consumerism. What’s actually the point if their community ends up exemplifying the worst of both worlds?

    I wouldn’t have made the comment if there had been at least one quote from the owner about how his customers are positively impacted by the art they buy to put on their walls, beyond finding ways to impress themselves and their neighbors with their wealth.

  138. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    IH: What about the last sentence of “educating Jews about fine Jewish art”? I assume that means to appreciate it, not just to impress the neighhbors.

  139. Nachum says:

    Abba:

    I meant the guns guy, not Berger.

    As I understand it, it will be a translation of R’ Steinsaltz’s commentary with his notes- as his Hebrew edition.

  140. IH says:

    Prof. Kaplan — it is possible to read that as charitably as you suggest, but in the context of the rest of the article that seemed to be about investment value.

  141. IH:

    “that the customers of this art gallery have established themselves as a separate holy culture specifically so they are not polluted by modern secular values such as consumerism”

    the article is about the gallery, not the clients. who knows why the buy the art
    (and again, the parallel with the non-jewish world can be instructive. plenty of non-frum people buy fine art to impress the neighbors, for investment, etc.)

    i have some experience with the fine art world (unfortunately not as a consumer). it is *very* commercial and consumerism oriented, both on the buyers’ and sellers’ end. i think you can give this crown heights guy a break. don’t worry, there plenty of other legitimate targets in the ortho world to critique.

  142. NACHUM

    i brought up prof berger in response to your comment that “I just always thought that the RCA only accepted active rabbis”
    he’s not an active rabbi (in any professional sense)

  143. NACHUM:

    “As I understand it, it will be a translation of R’ Steinsaltz’s commentary with his notes- as his Hebrew edition.”

    i haven’t used r. steinsaltz in a long, long time. what is the difference btw him and artscroll?

  144. shaul shapira says:

    “i haven’t used r. steinsaltz in a long, long time. what is the difference btw him and artscroll?”

    The Steinsaltz is intended to be more scholarly. He takes time to identify kordaykos and suchlike.

    Besides for the ban from the Charedi Rabbonim, R Aharon Feldman attacks his scholarship in The Eye Of The Storm. Also Professor Jacob Neusner has a book that (claims to) totally destroy him. I read a bit of it. Very odd style of bringing pages upon pages of translated Gemara to show how Steinsaltz is an idiot. Bizarrley translates words like znus with the english four letter equivalent.

    One good reason reason to use the Steinsaltz is l’hotzi m’liban shel ha’frumteens moderator:

    http://www.jewswithquestions.com/index.php?/topic/225-r-adin-steinsaltz/

  145. shaul shapira says:

    “Stadium Seating for Internet Morals”

    This article apparentl costs gelt to read unless you’re a suscriber.

  146. Tal Benschar says:

    From the OU statement:

    “While Judaism also teaches respect for others and condemns discrimination we, as Orthodox Jewish leaders, oppose any effort to change the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions,” it said in a statement.

    The notion that Judaism condemns “discrimination” is fatuous. THe term “discrimination” is a loaded and misapplied term. There are plenty of forms of “discrimination” which both secular law and Judaism approve of. Discriminating between those who commit crimes and those who don’t is one obvious example. It is only certain KINDS of discrimination which either secular society or Judaism might condemn.

    Second, besides the linguistic muddle, Judaism quite clearly does “discriminate” against homosexuals, or at least those who engage in homosexuality. Some such acts are a capital offense in the Torah, and all are forbidden.

    (And please spare me the usual arguments that distinguish persons/acts. A person who wants to engage in homosexual acts can’t. That is a form of discrimination.

    If a governent were to say, we have no problem with Jews, we just won’t let them practice Judaism, we would rightly view that as discrimination.)

  147. Really? says:

    The internet article quotes an Eytan Kobre who says things that are questionable to say the least. The entire event is already sold out – really? Then why are there still ads to buy tickets? Why did the local school send home a “strong request” to buy tickets this week?

    He claims to be the spokesman for the event but does not know who will be speaking? Does he even know what language the speeches will be in? (My assumption is a high concentration of yiddish)

    They could not figure out how to make it separate seating? umm, I have an idea – why not have women in one level and men in another? or did these people never go to a game and don’t realize that stadiums have different levels?

    sheesh

  148. shaul shapira says:

    “The internet article quotes an Eytan Kobre who says things that are questionable to say the least. The entire event is already sold out – really? Then why are there still ads to buy tickets? Why did the local school send home a “strong request” to buy tickets this week?”

    I can’t answer for the schools, but if you call the hotlie 1-732-551-3351 and then press 6, you can get more info. There are currently no tickets availible for sale. It seems that depending on how many were pre-ordered, they may in fact be sold out. If you have, or know of, extra tickets, please let me know at:

    http://us.mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/launch?reason=ignore&rs=1

    “He claims to be the spokesman for the event but does not know who will be speaking?”

    According to this bhol article, they’re keeping it secret so no one should attempt to derail any of the speakers:

    http://www.bhol.co.il/article.aspx?id=40698

    “They could not figure out how to make it separate seating? umm, I have an idea – why not have women in one level and men in another?”

    And invite the feminist critique?

    “or did these people never go to a game and don’t realize that stadiums have different levels?”

    Was that supposed to be an insult?

  149. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    rca membership is pretty expensive. its designed to have synagogues pay for their rabbi’s membership. i guess it works. thats prob what you mean by its not that easy to get in.

    as for the agudas harrabanim comment — historically, they did not allow non-yiddish speaking / american rabbis into membership, leading to the formation of riets rabbinic assn which became the rca (to include htc / skokie, and later others). of course non-yiddish speaking /american charedim would not join the rca, so igud harrabanim ( = rabbinical alliance) was formed (mostly torah vadaat, at the begining.)

    art gallery — since when do you post advertisements? (rhetorical comment)

    by the way, the gallery will fail — crown heights residents do not have $ of this type. visitors, perhaps. and / or establishing the gallery owner a name (which lubavitchers (and modern charedim in general) like to do.)

    monk — why is aguda resurrecting the “cave”? (perhaps cause of the “asifa”.)

  150. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    internet “asifa” — question — what about family sections, where younger children can attend?

    also, my sources tell me tix are going for $5 in lakewood. either they didnt sell all their tickets yet (more likely) or those that were extorted (by their children’s yeshivas) to buy for $10 are trying to minimize their costs.

  151. Steve Brizel says:

    One comment re the Asidah-how can anyone take it seriously, when the organizers essentially support the view of hiding their collective faces in the sand about instances of abuse, and then engaging in what can be legitimally called pressuring local authorities not to prosecute the same?

  152. Steve Brizel says:

    Eytan Kobre was quoted in the WSJ:

    “”We’re hoping to come together as a unified community to address a challenge that in the last number of years has begun dawning not just on our community and the larger Jewish community but society as a whole,” said Eytan Kobre, 52 years old, a spokesman for the event who is also the North American editor for an Orthodox magazine, Mispacha.

    “Hopefully we’ll fill the role that the Jewish people have tried to fill from time memorial, which is serving as a beacon to the world and as a force for the transformation of the good in society,” he said, adding that the event has already had sold out the 42,000-seat stadium.”

    Was the RCA, RIETS, YU or the OU invited to participate and what if , any, was their response? Does their absence give Mr. Kobre the right to define what is a “unified community”? Can the issue that the Asifah is addressing be viewed as more serious than repeated incidents of abuse that have been covered up and viewed as beyond the purview of possible prosecution by the authorities? One looks in vein for any real discussion of the issue of abuse in the Charedi media, which, instead, ignore such incidents as if they never occurred, and whhich instead of telling its population to report the same to the authorities,resort to hiding behind what can be seriously viewed as a distortion of the Halachos of Lashon Hara.

  153. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    steve b — we are not part of the community. (but our $ is good.)

    real question is: what is the program?

    will it be:
    a: fire and brimstone speeches — then of course, they’re wasting everyone’s time. (but their history will record the “historical”, etc asifa, blah blah blah)
    or
    b: a compromise of some sort. (note — i see reports that there will be booths / tables of companies representing filters, etc. and the claim is that the filter companies are owned by some of these “askanim”. the reports also state that over $1.5 million was raised. and that tix are going for $5)

  154. Steve Brizel says:

    FWIW, this week’s Yated had huge ads for tickets, and at least one charedi yeshiva that I know of had a sign up board for talmidim whose RY was urging them to attend.

  155. Steve Brizel says:

    FWIW, those interested in a critique of Mishpacha’s recent articles re Yad Vashem and what struck me and others as a patronizing interview with R S Burg of NCSY ( which included questions that I doubt that would have been addressed to heads of Charedi kiruv organizations) should see the letters to the editor in the most recent issue of Mishpacha.

  156. Steve Brizel says:

    IMO, the following excerpted language is of critical importance, an illustrative of the misplaced priorities with respect to the Asifah:

    “Whether it’s a legitimate issue or not, and I’m willing to posit that it is a legitimate issue, are they really going to make progress on it by holding a counterrally?” Mr. Kobre said. “It seems like a cheap political circus. It’s sad. It’s unfortunate”

  157. Steve Brizel says:

    To even assume that there is a debate on whether the issue of the existence of abuse, as opposed to who the same is reported, is tantamount to giving credence to a long rejected perspective that no such issue exists in the Torah obswervant world. One would think that such a POV had been rejected in the aftermath of the events of last summer.

  158. Steve Brizel says:

    One wonders whether the organizers of the Asifa consulted with any mental health professionals within the Torah observant world, and especially the many members of NEFESH.

  159. Steve Brizel says:

    In any event, regardless of the hoopla surrounding the Asifa, one looks in vein for any such Asifa being organized by the same people organizing this Asifa with respect to victims of abuse and our communal response to the same.

  160. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    steve b — you mean did the mental health professionals consult with the (proper) “gedolim”?

    like i said — they prefer fire and brimstone speeches, not well-though out and well organized presentations.

  161. Steve Brizel says:

    MiMedinat HaYam on May 11, 2012 at 3:52 pm

    steve b — you mean did the mental health professionals consult with the (proper) “gedolim”?

    Actually, I would hope and think that the organizers would consult mental health professionals who have expertise in such issues so that the “Gedolim” could be aware of the issues involved therein.

  162. Steve Brizel says:

    I once heard a rav say at a NEFESH conference that while every mental health professional should have a rav and Posek, every rav should also have a mental health professional with which he can discuss the mental health issues.

  163. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    actually, my comment was rhetorical.

    i once heard a charedi RY (with a somewhat open mind) say that if he ever needed a mental health professional (for himself) he would not go to an orthodox one. he has no trust in their confidentiality pledge. he would waste his time with a non jewish, or non religious one, who would also be more attune to what is needed, without “religious” scruples.

  164. Steve Brizel says:

    MiMedinat HaYam wrote:

    “i once heard a charedi RY (with a somewhat open mind) say that if he ever needed a mental health professional (for himself) he would not go to an orthodox one. he has no trust in their confidentiality pledge. he would waste his time with a non jewish, or non religious one, who would also be more attune to what is needed, without “religious” scruples.”

    Perhaps, the Charedi RY in question should speak or attend a NEFESH conference.

  165. Steve Brizel says:

    I have consistently written on the pluses and minuses of the Charedi and MO worlds, while criticizing their extremes. Yet, despite all of the wonderful facts that R Shafran mentions in his response to R Korn’s article, the facts remain that issues of abuse need to be addressed by the authorities who specialize in the same, as opposed to “in house” investigations and that “mesirah” should not be used as a means of equating the NYPD with the forces of the Czar. The time has long come for our communities to make Havdalah between the perpetrator and the victim.

  166. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “Was the RCA, RIETS, YU or the OU invited to participate and what if , any, was their response?”

    I read that they were invited and declined. But it’s really a non-issue; it’s simply not conceivable that such groups would agree to participate in an event that excluded women. Would anyone think that an invitation to chareidim by a MO group to an event that had mixed seating was a serious invitation that anyone thought would be accepted. Th fact is that there are certain issues that truly split the 2 communities such that “klal yisrael” cannot join together in one place in one joint event. Expecting anything different is not recognizing reality.

  167. more CH info says:

    Re Crown Heights art gallery, see NY Daily News article, “Welcome to Crown Heights, the Hasidic SoHo”, at http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=43795

    The director says that he has more people coming in to soak in the art in Crown Heights in one day, than in a whole week in Borough Park.

  168. IH says:

    Judging by the comments to the latest article, it seems my reading of the earlier piece is shared by others. They just use “chitzonius” and “gashmius” instead of my “consumerism”…

  169. Anonymous says:

    MMY:

    “formation of riets rabbinic assn which became the rca”

    The RCA was a merger (1936) of the RIETS RA (not the YU Rabbinic Alumni of today) and the OU Rabbinical Council (1923).

    “of course non-yiddish speaking /american charedim would not join the rca,”

    And the Agudat HaRabbanim would not accept them.

    Steve: RIETS *and* YU?

    That article on the Chidon HaTanach is…interesting. They don’t come right out and say it, but it seems it was won by a boy. Yet the article focuses on girls, one in particular. Ah well, journalism. Kol HaKavod to all the participants.

  170. MO says:

    The Orthodox statement on gay marriage was no more a kiddush Hashem than was Orthodox Rabbi Morris Raphalis 1861 sermon supporting slavery as sanctioned by the Torah. Then the kiddush Hashem was from the Reform Rabbis David Einhorn who took Rabbi Raphali to task and today it is the Reform and Conservative Rabbis who have done the kiddush Hashem.

    the orthodox statement was a chilul Hashem.. Halakhically Gay marriage is not acceptable, but civillially gays should enjoy all the benefits enjoyed by heterosexual couples.

  171. SHAUL SHAPIRA:

    “There are currently no tickets availible for sale.”

    if there aren’t any left, why are schools scrambling and forcing parents to buy tickets?

    “If you have, or know of, extra tickets, please let me know”

    i’m sure there are more than a few prospect park parents who would give it to you for free. they were all complaining tonight at shaloshseudos that they were bullied into buying tickets but don’t want to go.

    “And invite the feminist critique?”

    as opposed to not permitting women altogether?

    JOSEPH KAPLAN:

    “I read that they were invited and declined.”

    invited to add their name (and give $) or invited as equal partners (to sit on the dais, have speakers, etc.)?

  172. MO

    “Then the kiddush Hashem was from the Reform Rabbis David Einhorn”

    einhorn certainly wasn’t viewed as a kiddush hashem in his time

  173. i watched the chidon a few years ago on youtube. it was amazing and inspiring to watch these kids. and what a wonderful way for israelis to celebrate yom haatzmaut. (and talking about kiddush hashem, what about that girl a few years ago who didn’t want to accept her medal because she said the judges made a mistake in saying the runner up answered incorrectly!)

    “In Israel, the Americans vie against champions from 21 other countries.”

    actually, american and other diaspora jews generally perform so poorly that the system is set up to guarantee there will always be crowned diaspora champion. another reason for aliyah? i think an exception (unique in recent memory?) was a few years ago when a YofF student won 2nd place without any affirmative action assistance.
    another reason for aliyah?

    “The Bible bee, last weekend at Yeshiva University, tested 115 students on the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament.”

    ?

  174. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Anonymous: The boy who got the perfect score won the MIDDLE SCHOOL contrst, the girl won the HIGH SCHOOL contest. Befed you make snide comments, learn to read carefully.

  175. Mark says:

    “Was the RCA, RIETS, YU or the OU invited to participate and what if , any, was their response?”

    Yes. Everyone has been invited. some will attend. others will not. No surprise there.

    “Does their absence give Mr. Kobre the right to define what is a “unified community”?”

    What???

    “Can the issue that the Asifah is addressing be viewed as more serious than repeated incidents of abuse that have been covered up and viewed as beyond the purview of possible prosecution by the authorities?”

    Most certainly. Abuse, as terrible as it is, affects a minority of the population. The internet affects a majority of the population.

    “One looks in vein for any real discussion of the issue of abuse in the Charedi media, which, instead, ignore such incidents as if they never occurred, and whhich instead of telling its population to report the same to the authorities,resort to hiding behind what can be seriously viewed as a distortion of the Halachos of Lashon Hara.”

    Did you mean, “vain” instead of “vein?”
    Steve – I have little hope for you to grasp what I’m about to share with you but for the sake of the others who read it, I’ll give it a few minutes.
    Abuse is a real problem and has been dealt with to one degree or another. Perhaps not sufficiently and maybe more needs to be done and will. Regardless, the internet is a huge problem and needs to be dealt with and that’s what they’re trying to do. One does not preclude the other except in the minds of those who scoff at anything that comes out of the Hareidi camp. For years, the commenters on this board claimed that they disagreed with banning the internet and that Hareidim were out of touch. “What needed to be done,” they generously explained, “was to highlight the importance of filters and responsible usage of the internet.”
    well, whaddya know, a couple of Haredim got together, raised a few million dollars and created a huge event dedicated to highlighting the importance of filters and responsible usage. They promised not to go down the banning route. Now, the commenters explained that they’re against this because, “it doesn’t go far enough,” “we can’t trust the rabbonum,” “they didn’t invite the RCA and RIETS,” and of course, “Hey – what abuse covering up for abuse!”
    Rather contemptible.

  176. IH says:

    Mark’s got a point. Why are everyone’s knickers in a twist. If the Charedi community wants to spend their scarce resources in that manner, why should I care?

    When they next hit you up for money, just remind them how they chose to spend millions of dollars that could have been used for the particular cause being solicited: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

  177. Charlie Hall says:

    ” einhorn certainly wasn’t viewed as a kiddush hashem in his time”

    On the issue of slavery, Einhorn was 100% correct.

    I wonder how Bnei Jeshurun treats this bit of embarrassing history.

    Rabbi Bernard Illowy’s views on slavery were equally offensive — and Illowy was so unpleasant in general that I heard one orthodox rabbi in a city Illowy served credit Illowy with making most Jews in that city Reform!

    Fortunately there was one strong Orthodox voice opposing slavery: Rabbi Sabato Morais, in Philadelphia.

  178. IH says:

    And the implications for Jews in Kansas should the Governor “have contempt for the opinions of the people and laws passed by representatives of the people”?

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-05-12/kansas-lawmakers-anti-islamic-law/54914292/1

  179. CHARLIE HALL:

    “On the issue of slavery, Einhorn was 100% correct”

    no kidding, but at the time he was in the minority

    “I wonder how Bnei Jeshurun treats this bit of embarrassing history.”

    1) his sermon didn’t support southern slavery (even if that’s how it was interpreted)
    2) what’s so embarrassing? he was asked to discuss the bible’s view on slavery. (19th c. american christians often inquired of jews for the biblical view of controversial matters.) and that he did. you think he misinterpreted the bible view on slavery?
    3) why should BJ be embarrassed? for practical purposes, he was not much different than most northerners, including other rabbis and lay jewish leaders. should we be embarrassed about leeser and i.m.wise also?

    “Fortunately there was one strong Orthodox voice opposing slavery: Rabbi Sabato Morais, in Philadelphia.”

    morais personally abhored slavery and was an ardent republican (lower and upper case), but he was *not* an abolitionist nor as far as i know did he lend his voice publicly toward the opposition of slavery prior to 1864 (i.e., post emancipation proclamation and when it was clear where the war headed). (there is a manuscript morais sermon that may date to the early 1860s in AJHS on the “bible view of slavery,” possibly a reaction to raphall and it could shed light on morais’s public views as that time, but unfortunately it is in shorthand and remains undeciphered.) and when he finally did speak out he was subjected to a gag order by copperhead board members at mikveh israel and he was forbidden to preach.

  180. avi says:

    From the “monk” article:

    “Prudent, measured insularity is not medieval Christian asceticism.”

    .. It’s not Haredi Judaism either!

  181. Moshe Shoshan says:

    mark
    I think if anyone here generally gives the chareidi world the benefit of the doubt here its Steve. Anyway Steve is not the only one who cant grasp what you are saying.

    No one questions that the internet i raises many issues for spititual and moral people of every stripe (the efforts to portray this as a “Us vs Them” issue disgust me). No one question that the Chareidim world needs to deal with this issue in its own terms. But the rabbinic cries to keep our children safe from the virtual evils of the internet while at best doing very little to protect these same children from the horrors of actual abuse, serious under cuts these rabbis credibility.

    Anyways excluding women, the stay at home mothers (thats the chareidi ideal isnt it?) who stand on the front lines of this war, takes chareidi sexism to new extremes.

  182. Mark says:

    Moshe,

    “I think if anyone here generally gives the chareidi world the benefit of the doubt here its Steve.”

    Agree, but around these parts, that’s not saying much. Regardless, he’s demonstrated an inability to hear an opposing point of view so I decided to answer for the benefit of others.

    “Anyway Steve is not the only one who cant grasp what you are saying.”

    Of course. You were also not the person I had in mind when I responded. I’ve never seen you speak favorably of Hareidim so I had no expectations of reaching you either.

    “No one questions that the internet i raises many issues for spititual and moral people of every stripe (the efforts to portray this as a “Us vs Them” issue disgust me).”

    I’m not sure who portrays it that way. All I’ve ever heard is that it’s a huge spiritual problem and that if they secular world may not see it that way, that’s not a reason for us to bury our heads in the sand.

    “No one question that the Chareidim world needs to deal with this issue in its own terms. But the rabbinic cries to keep our children safe from the virtual evils of the internet while at best doing very little to protect these same children from the horrors of actual abuse, serious under cuts these rabbis credibility.”

    You’re free to feel that way if you wish. By the same note, you may also wish to decry the fact that these very same rabbonim actually insist that their children fasten their seat belts or vaccinate their children. After all, until they’ve conclusively demonstrated their willingness to tackle the abuse problem to your satisfaction, all other attempts to ensure their children’s safety and security seriously cut into their credibility.

    Yet another perspective is to recognize that they are separate issues and even if they haven’t faced one as passionately and effectively as you feel they should have [I'm not arguing that point either - it's a legitimate viewpoint regardless of how I feel], they can at least be applauded for recognizing the dangers of the internet which even you admit is a recognized problem across the board. If anything, this should be a point in their favor, unless, of course, you are bent on criticizing any all things Hareidi. You next comment indicates that this is the case.

    “Anyways excluding women, the stay at home mothers (thats the chareidi ideal isnt it?) who stand on the front lines of this war, takes chareidi sexism to new extremes.”

    Like I said, you’re not the type of person I’d expect to reach. Your distaste for Hareidim clearly knows no bounds and you’ve never made a secret of it. Perhaps others who have a more open-minded approach and a greater love for those who are not exactly like them, however, may appreciate the potential good that can come out this asifa and not feel the need to instinctively criticize everything that comes out of the Hareidi camp.

  183. shaul shapira says:

    “Th fact is that there are certain issues that truly split the 2 communities such that “klal yisrael” cannot join together in one place in one joint event. Expecting anything different is not recognizing reality.”

    Mazel Tov. About time someone acknowledged that. I would add that the average satmar chassid probably considers many of my views heretical. Such is galus.

  184. shaul shapira says:

    Anyone know what’s happened to maran rashkebehag S. shlita? His blog has been inert for over a week, and he doesn’t seem to be commenting here?

  185. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Saul Shapira: Maybe he has a life to lead.

  186. It’s for VERY good reasons.

  187. Moshe Shoshan says:

    “Your distaste for Hareidim clearly knows no bounds and you’ve never made a secret of it. ”

    I find this quite offensive.
    I am strong critic of the current chareidi leadership.
    I was raised to revere rabbinic figures such as R. Moshe Feinstein, R. Yaakov Kaminetsky The Labatcher Rebbe and RSZ auerbach. These were true gedolim who transcended all ideological boundries. I dont see leadership of that sort today. I see kanaus raised to be an end in itself. I think that the avodah zara of gedolim and the advocacy of mass adoption of the path of Rashbi is an extreme perversion of Torah values. As I resident of beit shemesh I have waited in vain for members of the chareidi community (other than the Belzer rebbe) to unequivocaly condemn the actions of the kanoyim. In part because there is no place in the chareidi world for dissent of disagreement.

    I think the masses of charedim contain many many people who completely committed to lives of Torah, Chessed and Yiras Shamayim, far more than in the MO world. But they are tragically ill served by their leadership.
    You have no Idea how much time I spend trying to explain and humanize the charei world to not frum Jews
    I dont think this qualifies as unmitigated hatred of charaidim.

    As for portraying the internet issue as “us vs them”- what does it mean when R. Ahron Shechter signs his letter of support for the assifa with “baruch shel assani goy”

  188. mycroft says:

    “I was raised to revere rabbinic figures such as R. Moshe Feinstein, R. Yaakov Kaminetsky The Labatcher Rebbe and RSZ auerbach. These were true gedolim who transcended all ideological boundries. I dont see leadership of that sort today. I see kanaus raised to be an end in itself.”

    Romanticism of the past. Thus RMF would be at for leviot of some ofthe Ravs relatives but he was distantly related. I don’t recall Rav Yacov ever being at YU despite his mechutan being a RY there.
    I don’t recall RYK, being mentioned much at all at YU-I doubt the Rav was mentioned in Torah Vaddat too much.

  189. mycroft says:

    BTW-if the internet had been around during that time period for better or worse at least some of the people mentioned would not have had the reputation that they currently have-what this says about today vs yesterday is certainly open for discussion.

  190. Harediman© says:

    Citifiel will not be a lovefest but rather a hatefest.

    For those in th MO community who wish that he YI/MO/RCA/YU community should have neen invited, you really really really don’t want to be there.
    For those that are attributing altruistcie motives to the organizers and the rabbanim, it’s nice of you to think so.
    This is an attempted hijacking of Hareidi Judaism by the Far RW.
    Please read the pamphlet the Ichud is sending out. It may seem like parody but it’s not . It’s in yiddiash and its importatnt to see ehat they are ” really” saying.
    This will be a sand in the line moment. You are either with is or against us. Can they pull it off? I don’t think so , They are mortgaging the family jewels on this one.
    Read what they are saying.They haven’t written it in Englsih as far as I know. Caveat emptor.

    http://theantitzemach.blogspot.ca/2012/05/to-go-or-not-go.html

    http://theantitzemach.blogspot.ca/2012/05/blog-post_12.html

  191. a week away says:

    As some of my more “LW Chareidi” friends will be there, I will know soon enough if this was about responsible use of the internet or a head in the sand event. As I no longer believe anything I ead in the Chareidi press or the Jewish Week, the only thing I can believe is actual live witnesses whom I trust.

    For people who want to laugh – this weeks Mishpacha magazine has an article on the event, with a photo shop that uses SHEA stadium as the background. (well at least I found it funny.)

  192. Shaul Shapira:

    “Anyone know what’s happened to maran rashkebehag S. shlita? His blog has been inert for over a week, and he doesn’t seem to be commenting here?”

    If u miss him that much and value his input, consider sending him a donation

  193. Mark says:

    Moshe,

    “I find this quite offensive.”

    As Steve Brizel is fond if saying, “I stand by my position.” :-)
    Seriously, I don’t wish to offend another Jew, but I certainly won’t withdraw my opinion. If you wish to be thought of otherwise, considering tempering your words somewhat. I’m a longtime reader of Hirhurim and I cannot recall ever reading something positive from you about the Hareidim. Plenty of negative but no positive. Perhaps it occurred but the fact that I can’t remember it is a sign that it doesn’t happen very often. You can spin it however you like, but it’s hard not to see it as I do from my vantage point.

    “These were true gedolim who transcended all ideological boundries. I dont see leadership of that sort today. I see kanaus raised to be an end in itself.”

    I don’t know you personally so I have no idea what sort of connection you have to any contemporary Gedolim and how you form your opinion. Perhaps you know many of them and speak from first-hand experience. Perhaps you’re basing it on what you’ve read, heard, assumed, and imagined. I dunno but I have a sneaky suspicion that I’ll keep to myself for fear of further offending.
    I do know that I am personally acquainted with a fair number of contemporary Gedolim, both in the US and EY. With some I’m closer than with others, but I’ve had a decent amount of dealings with a fairly sizable number of them. I also knew R’ Yaakov and R’ Moshe, although somewhat later in life. I don’t know any who are their equal in Torah scholarship, but I know many who are their equal in terms of devotion to the Klal. None are perfect and I’ve had my differences with almost all of them, but I hold almost all of them in the highest regard because I’ve seen their altruism and true concern for a fellow Jew time and time again. I wonder if you wouldn’t feel similarly if you knew and worked with some of them personally.

    “I think that the avodah zara of gedolim and the advocacy of mass adoption of the path of Rashbi is an extreme perversion of Torah values.”

    I agree that these are both terrible ideas and I await the day that the masses understand this as well.

    “As I resident of beit shemesh I have waited in vain for members of the chareidi community (other than the Belzer rebbe) to unequivocaly condemn the actions of the kanoyim. In part because there is no place in the chareidi world for dissent of disagreement.”

    Disagree but regardless – this is not an indictment of the entire Haredi world.

    “I think the masses of charedim contain many many people who completely committed to lives of Torah, Chessed and Yiras Shamayim, far more than in the MO world. But they are tragically ill served by their leadership.”

    Disagree entirely. Like I said, I know firsthand how well they are served by their leadership – often in areas that don’t make the news. This doesn’t mean that they never fail them – they do. But you’re looking at only one side of the coin, if that.

    “You have no Idea how much time I spend trying to explain and humanize the charei world to not frum Jews”

    You’re right. I don’t and I can’t imagine that you would. I would never have guessed it based on your comments here. That’s the only way I can form an opinion of your sentiments about the Hareidi community and if things are indeed different, you do a miserable job of conveying that in this forum. I’m happy to hear that my view of you is incomplete, but, as I said earlier, if you wish to be thought of otherwise, you’re going to need to do a better job of qualifying your criticism which comes across as unceasing.

    “As for portraying the internet issue as “us vs them”- what does it mean when R. Ahron Shechter signs his letter of support for the assifa with “baruch shel assani goy””

    I cannot speak for R’ Ahron Shechter. Perhaps ask him what he meant. He might have an explanation that satisfies you. Regardless, he’s not the sum total of the Haredi world.

  194. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “I think the masses of charedim contain many many people who completely committed to lives of Torah, Chessed and Yiras Shamayim, far more than in the MO world. But they are tragically ill served by their leadership.”

    Disagree entirely.”

    I assume you really only disagree partially.

  195. joel rich says:

    “You have no Idea how much time I spend trying to explain and humanize the charei world to not frum Jews”

    You’re right. I don’t and I can’t imagine that you would. I would never have guessed it based on your comments here
    =====================================================
    A disappointing response. One can try to be constructively critical of their own family and their close cousins, within the confines of the family, but try to defend the family to outsiders.
    KT

  196. Mark says:

    Joseph,

    Correct. thank you.

    Joel,

    If you think that writing on Hirhurim constitutes “within the confines of the family” you need to get out more. Moshe reaches more people with his comments on Hirhurim than he does when speaking to outsiders.

  197. shaul shapira says:

    “When they next hit you up for money, just remind them how they chose to spend millions of dollars that could have been used for the particular cause being solicited: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”

    I don’t suppose you’ve ever heard of the Siyum Hashas before, and the money that goes into making that happen. If you’ve been fooled till now- shame on you indeed.

  198. shaul shapira says:

    “If u miss him that much and value his input, consider sending him a donation”

    I would if I could.
    (And to preempt your response, the internet asifa comes first. Priorities.)

    Professor Kaplan: LOL (on the rest of us commenters)

  199. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    “the internet asifa comes first. Priorities”

    how did they get the schottenstein family to $pon$or?

 
 

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