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Youths calling for gender segregation on buses arrested
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Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the founder, publisher and editor-in-chief of Torah Musings.

 
The opinions and facts here are presented solely by the author. Torah Musings assumes no responsibility for them. Please address religious questions to your rabbi.
 

227 Responses

  1. shaul shapira says:

    *Where Beit Shemesh went wrong

    “But separate Haredi cities are unsustainable.”

    Has this guy ever heard of Bnei Brak?

  2. Y. Aharon says:

    Why does the OU list oats as one of the 5 biblical grains when evidence suggests that oats aren’t native to the middle east? Even the concurrence of Rashi to the association of oats with one of those 5 grains, doesn’t remove it, to my thinking, from the category of a doubtful association. In case of doubt in a biblical mitzvah, we normally rule stringently. Why not for oat matzah? Furthermore, it seems odd that egg matzot are ruled invalid for Pesach use (the Ashkenazi ruling) by anyone who can digest regular matzah, but oat matzah is, instead, allowed by some even for seder use. The prohibition of egg matzah is based on an untested and unreasonable conjecture that a drop of water in the mix may shorten the leavening time, while oat doesn’t have a reality based presumption of fulfilling the talmudic requirement of a mitzvah matzah.

  3. Hirhurim says:

    Bnei Brak is falling apart

  4. Tal Benschar says:

    Why does the OU list oats as one of the 5 biblical grains when evidence suggests that oats aren’t native to the middle east?

    Because “evidence” does not trump masorah.

    Cf. using horseradish for maror.

    (That being said, everyone agrees that wheat is considered the finest of the five grains, and absent some medical or digestion problems, is the preferred grain for matzoh.)

  5. shaul shapira says:

    “Bnei Brak is falling apart”

    Not according to wikipedia:
    http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%A7#.D7.94.D7.A2.D7.99.D7.A8_.D7.9B.D7.99.D7.95.D7.9D

    Some quotes:

    העיר הצפופה משפרת את חזותה יותר ויותר, והוקמו בה פארקים בצפון העיר ובמרכזה לרווחת תושביה.

    לפי נתוני הלמ”ס נכון לדצמבר 2009, העיר מדורגת 2 מתוך 10, בדירוג
    החברתי-כלכלי. השכר החודשי הממוצע של שכיר במשך שנת 2009 היה 4,752 ש”ח (ממוצע ארצי: 7,070 ש”ח). להלן גרף המציג את התפתחות האוכלוסייה בעיר:

  6. aiwac says:

    “Because “evidence” does not trump masorah.”

    Sigh…

  7. Hirhurim says:

    I met with Bnei Brak’s mayor about a year ago, as he toured the US trying to scrounge up industrial and tourist ties. It sure sounded to me like the place is falling apart.

    Also, isn’t a 2 out of 10 bad?

  8. IH says:

    There is an interesting article in the current NY Review of Books about the Hajj exhibit at the British Museum (particularly given Pesach):

    “But the Hajj does much more than answer a need for spiritual obliteration. It has a declamatory function, and that is to state the political and historical truth of Muhammad’s mission. The Hajj is a summons to orthodoxy and a reminder of Islam’s ownership of its origins. With the passage of centuries, its unchanging aspects have become an implicit rejection of certain values that we consider ‘modern.’

    […]

    The effect of exposure to Mecca was often to reinforce orthodoxy in far-flung places, as well as the universality of Arabic as the language favored by God. It is striking to find fragments of Arabic in Hajj literature from as far apart as Mali and Sumatra.”

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/apr/26/supreme-shrine/?pagination=false

  9. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    BB may be falling apart, economically, not demographically, etc. and “they” dont care about economically. besides, real estate prices there are still pretty high, esp compared to rest of israel (except jerusalem, TA, haifa).

    the kibbutzim, by the way, fell apart several times over the years.

    every mayor of every major (and not so major) is touring around, schnorring for “economic development” money.

    2. toxic matza — they dont have a filter! shame ojn them? (humor)

    gluten free — it should be labeled “flavored”, thus not kosher for the seder.

    since when is “calling for gender separation” an arrestable offense.

  10. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    MMHY: The did not just “call for gender segregation.” They stood near the buses and, I presume, near the women boarding them, and used megaphones. Perhaps harrassment or intimidation or disturbing the peace. But, actually, I, like you, would like to know what law(s) they were charged with violating,

  11. Nachum says:

    Actually, they didn’t have modern day bread wheat back then either. “Chitta” is probably durum wheat. But at least bread wheat and spelt (also not one of the original five) are part of the same genus. (Rye, also not one of the original five, isn’t, but it is part of the same tribe as wheat and barley.) Oats aren’t.

    IH, here’s the best line about that exhibit:
    http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/295350/happy-holidays-mark-steyn

  12. IH says:

    Nachum — amusing. The NYRB piece doesn’t pull any punches in that regard or several others. E.g.

    “By showing Islamic art and architecture and their often fruitful interactions with our own, these institutions have conditioned the generally sympathetic attitudes that many non-Muslims have toward Islam as a force of considerable creative power. These attitudes have even survived more recent attempts, particularly after September 11, to denounce Islam as a violent ideology.

    This view of Islam as a frame for creativity may be attractive and well-intentioned, but it is incomplete. To devout Muslims, Islam is primarily a faith and only after that a civilization. In fact, the cultural artifacts can often obscure the faith they are meant to adorn.”

    But, I posted the reference less for the political aspects and more for the Orthodoxy aspects.

  13. IH says:

    Oops. There should be ellipses at the beginning and end of that quotation — the author is commending the British Museum for taking the latter more complete view.

  14. joel rich says:

    The comments on the matzo story are worth reading.
    So i spoke last night between mincha and maariv on hand vs machine vs. 18 minute matzo and the plusses and minuses of each. I then asked if there were any actuaries or rabbis in the crowd who might suggest how we resolve this issue (turns out there were no actuaries in the crowd). Given the clipboard toting rabbis mentioned in the article, it strengthens my suggestion that it would be fairly easy (if expensive) to study the “failure rate” of each method rather than guess (especially based on old technology!)
    ML

  15. joel rich says:

    From B-I-L: http://tzoharlateiva.blogspot.com/
    These are very special matzot made in the chareidi settlement of Kommemiut not far from Rechovot. They are made from hand stone ground whole wheat which was “watched” from the time of harvest so as not to come into contact with any moisture.The hechsher boasts of “chai chumros” (18 stringencies) including that the wheat was harvested by G-d fearing Jews who said “leshem Yichud” before operating the harvester, the rolling pins are sanded down every 18 minuets, the water used for the dough comes from a special closed cistern supervised year round by a special mashgiach etc. etc. The matzot are rolled out super thin by a special group of women(davka !) and baked by men who continuously recite a cycle of Psalms. In any event IMHO these are the best tasting hand baked shmura matzot that I have ever tasted.

    (i’m thinking of a niche for having the guy making the harvester say lsheim)

    ML

  16. IH says:

    The big question to me is whether it is Ratzon ha’Shem to have the “chai chumros” or to donate the difference in cost (and presumably price) between good enough and perfect to the poor?

  17. joel rich says:

    R’IH,
    Baruch shekivanta!
    KT

  18. Shalom Rosenfeld says:

    A neighbor of mine once tried (tired?) his hand at hand-grinding — and rapidly understood why many (including Chabad) prefer machine-grinding, from a quality-control standpoint.

  19. Max says:

    The big question to me is whether it is Ratzon ha’Shem to have the “chai chumros” or to donate the difference in cost (and presumably price) between good enough and perfect to the poor.

    ספר מסילת ישרים פרק יד

    חלקי הפרישות הראשיים שלשה: כי הנה יש פרישות בהנאות, פרישות בדינים, פרישות במנהגים. הפרישות בהנאות, הוא מה שהזכרנו בפרק הקודם, דהיינו, שלא לקחת מדברי העולם אלא מה שהצורך יכריח, ודבר זה יקיף על כל מה שהוא תענוג לאחד מן החושים, והיינו: במאכלות, בבעילות, במלבושים, בטיולים, בשמיעות וכל כיוצא בזה, רק בימים שהעונג בהם מצוה.

    והפרישות בדינים הוא להחמיר בהם תמיד,

    והפרישות במנהגים הוא התבודדות וההבדל מן החברה המדינית לפנות לבו אל העבודה וההתבוננות בה כראוי,

    There is plenty of opportunity to advocate increase in Perishus Types I and III for the sake of the poor, before advocating decrease in Perishus Type II for the sake of the poor.

  20. Steve Brizel says:

    IH wrote:
    “The big question to me is whether it is Ratzon ha’Shem to have the “chai chumros” or to donate the difference in cost (and presumably price) between good enough and perfect to the poor?”

    What makes you assume that the proceeds of the sale don’t or are not donated or otherwise distributed to the poor?

  21. shaul shapira says:

    “Is top Bnei Brak girls’ school jinxed?”

    Pretty freaky story. Does anybody ‘on the ground’ in Israel know what the word [1] on the street is?

    [1] “hock” b’laaz

  22. IH says:

    Steve — the cost is still higher, as per the description (which is why I focused on cost in my response). Any donations from the proceeds (i.e. price minus cost) are irrelevant to my question.

  23. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    “to donate the difference in cost (and presumably price) between good enough and perfect to the poor?””

    aren’t the kollel wives and yeshiva students who (supposedly; in the old days) do the work qualified as “tzedaka” cases?

    2. there is a (non extremist) bais yaakov class of over thirty year old young ladies (otherwise accomplished in their careers) with an extremely high rate of divorces and never been marrieds in flatbush, too. (no story about jinxes or mistreating a classmate.)

    3. from my experience in baking matzot, the amount of rejects isnt too high. and no use putting them in tzedaka / tomchei shabat boxes. they wont “sell.” maybe for “shvurim”, if there is no chametz issues. and today, matza meal is not too saleable.

    by the way, almost all rejected (coomercial production) food is rejected and NOT given to poor, others. (sometimes it can be ground up or otherwise reprocessed, but almost never donated to the poor. issues with “good samaritan laws”, etc, which , it is said, dont really work.) if you cant stomach that, you cant be in the food business, it is said.

  24. IH says:

    More on the Matza business (and worth reading the comments too):
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/magazine/the-amazing-matzo-stimulus.html

  25. dr. bill says:

    assume it was a smallish class of say 15 girls. given the shidduch crisis (caused by an ~ 5% smaller group of older boys looking for 19 year old girls), it should be expected that once in a very long while a group of that size can find themselves unmatched. prayer to the gods of probability may be in order.

  26. shaul shapira says:

    Aren’t the newer daily links usually on top?

  27. joel rich says:

    dr. bill,
    LOL-For a girl in the real world of course it’s boolean (btw I know those probability gods all too well – they’re pretty deaf :-))
    KT

  28. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    titanic jewish connection http://www.jewishtelegraph.com/world_2.html

    a poor article, but i read about this several times over the years.

    agnostic prayer threats article — “Hoffman’s ruling did not actually turn on constitutional questions as much as it did on Weinstein’s claims that the prayers incited the threats and vandalism.”

    but calling on a jew to be fired(and other implied threats) from his congressional job is ok, according to some rabbis.

  29. IH says:

    On the Forward story about the competition from Israeli matzot, I would refer the author to the comments in the NYT story he complains about. I am with those who think the Israeli matza tastes a lot better — we have bought Aviv/Yehuda over Streits/Manischewitz for years, even when they weren’t cheaper, for that reason.

    And for those of us who pay ~$25/lb for Shmura, the price differential for the machine-made is really not very significant. My shumra taste vote is Shatzer, btw :-)

  30. Jerry says:

    “Because “evidence” does not trump masorah.”

    Sure it does. That’s why RHS cares about milk nowadays. You think the gedolim 200 years ago didn’t drink milk? Heck, that’s why we do a million things differently that b’shanim kadmoniyos no one ever thought was a problem.

  31. Jerry says:

    והפרישות בדינים הוא להחמיר בהם תמיד

    Yeah. The key word is בהם.

  32. aiwac says:

    IH brings up an important point about humras in kashrut.

    Many machmirim argue that there are no costs or trade-offs to mehadrin (what could it hurt?). The truth is that there is a serious tradeoff in that it hurts the poorer and even middle class frum Jews. The more mehadrin something is, the more the company, restaurant &c has to shell out to the kashrut agency. That cost is then passed on to the consumer in the form of far higher prices.

    Perhaps we should start a “kosher social justice” movement that advocates purchasing “just” kosher products? Maybe a “just kosher” organization could establish its own brand?

    Just a thought.

  33. Hirhurim says:

    Jerry: I don’t think milk is a good example because there is a clear change in metzi’us regarding cows. A better example is that RHS wears techeiles, something which he acknowledges R. Soloveitchik would never do because of masorah.

  34. Hirhurim says:

    Tonight’s post is about R. J. David Bleich’s attempt to define “glatt” as it is understood today.

  35. joel rich says:

    WADR to r’ Gil might I suggest that YU’s last round of cost cutting would have been a great opportunity to recommunicate its priorities. As an outside observer I’d like to better understand the message of the cuts and how it comports with YU’s vision. We might also address the relationship between the Yeshiva (and more importantly its roshei yeshiva) and the University. Dai lchakimah brimiza and I say this as a proud graduate and foot soldier in what often seems like a long twilight struggle.
    ML

  36. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Joel Rich: I guess I am not a “chakimah.” Would you care to spell out your allusions and dark hints?

  37. joel rich says:

    I believe there is some sh”ut literature on causing damage by prayer/kabbalah.
    ML

  38. joel rich says:

    Nothing dark, just measuring the alignment of the hashkafa of the R”Y and RJ et al.
    ML

  39. Jerry says:

    Hirhurim: “I don’t think milk is a good example because there is a clear change in metzi’us regarding cows. A better example is that RHS wears techeiles, something which he acknowledges R. Soloveitchik would never do because of masorah.”

    Good point, but when did the metzius change? Presumably within that time frame, other gedolim drank milk. Isn’t RHS’s general shitah that we have to take advantage of scientific discoveries, even l’chumra?

  40. aiwac says:

    “Isn’t RHS’s general shitah that we have to take advantage of scientific discoveries, even l’chumra?”

    Even lechumra, or only lechumra?

  41. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    recently discussed here, quotes us — http://www.thejewishweek.com/blogs/jewish_techs/can_one_sell_chametz_over_internet

    regarding titanic, must mention the straus family (of a&s macys fame) was on the titanic, coming back from a visit to ottoman palestine (actually called syria then). rav shmuel salant advised them to stay for pesach; one brother did, and survived, the other went on the titanic. the family is responsible for “rechov straus” in yerushalayim, and “tipat chalav” (i believe there is a plaque on rechov straus mentioning this) (which i am surprised tipat chalav still exists, per a google search.)

  42. aiwac says:

    Joel,

    Higher Ed in general is going through a sea change and YU cannot afford to remain behind.

  43. Steve Brizel says:

    R Gil-excellent response to the YU article in last week’s Jewish Week.

  44. joel rich says:

    R’ Aiwac
    Of course, just be up front and also clarify your vision so everyone understands the decisions.
    ML

  45. ruvie says:

    r’ joel – “Of course, just be up front and also clarify your vision so everyone understands the decisions’
    what do you need clarification on? simply, they are retrenching as much as they can because they over spent and the goals were never realistic. the biggest gut will be in the administration. cutting a few courses here or there is window dressing.

  46. Steve Brizel says:

    IH wrote in response:

    “Steve — the cost is still higher, as per the description (which is why I focused on cost in my response). Any donations from the proceeds (i.e. price minus cost) are irrelevant to my question”

    I think that the cost can be easily rationalized because the production of Matzah represents the congruence of two equally significant factors-ensuring that the ingredients do not become Chametz and that the same are fit for Matzas Mitzvah for Leil Seder. If the maztzos are produced by a community and are distributed at stores, I find it hard to believe , especially in the absence of proof , other than rank speculation to the contrary founded on anti Charedi sentiments, that none of the proceeds are distributed as Tzedaka as Maos chitim, to at least some of the needy of the community where the same are produced.

  47. Steve Brizel says:

    AIWAC wrote in part:

    “Many machmirim argue that there are no costs or trade-offs to mehadrin (what could it hurt?). The truth is that there is a serious tradeoff in that it hurts the poorer and even middle class frum Jews. The more mehadrin something is, the more the company, restaurant &c has to shell out to the kashrut agency.”

    Such a premise which IMO, is representative of a genre of stereotypical thinking and urban mythology in its own way, ignores the simple fact that many people, not just in the area of Kashrus, but in many areas of Halacha view being Yotze Kol HaDeos and accepting upon themselves Chumros as a means of demonstrating their Ahavas HaShem that they are willing to go beyond MeIkar HaDin in as many aspects of their lives as possible. I don’t think that many of us would buy Tefilin or a Sefer Torah that wasn’t of the highest quality or use sefarim that did not represent a carefully edited work.

  48. aiwac says:

    Steven,

    You didn’t address my point which is that more chumrot = more financial burden. Waxing lyrical about “yotze lechol hade’ot doesn’t change the fact that many Orthodox communities are effectively pricing people out of the frum community (or into bankruptcy).

  49. Steve Brizel says:

    Joel Rich wrote:

    “Nothing dark, just measuring the alignment of the hashkafa of the R”Y and RJ et al”

    I would suggest that the alignment is perfect. President Joel respects and supports the RY as world class Talmidei Chachamim, and demonstrates this by his enthusiastic appearances at the Purim Chagigah, while comcomitantly refraining from engaging in hashkafically oriented comments. President Joel has enlisted the RY as speakers and fund raisers on YU’s Shabbatonim in various communities in the same manner as other yeshivos, the Thanksgiving and Shavuous events, and clearly depends on the RY to keep students in the various one year programs to go to YU and to inspire others to do so, who may be going elsewhere. President Joel also allows the RY the same views accorded to professors within YC and SCW to express their POV on issues facing students, even when the views expressed do not accord with a PC viewpoint on many issues. OTOH, due to President Joel’s POV as a former head of Hillel, he has allowed some , but not all,decidedly speakers of a LW variety, to speak on campus. Like it or not, the best sales pitch IMO for YU remains its uniqueness-it is neither Harvard, Brandeis, Lakewood,Ponevezh or the Mir nor is it without challenges to one’s prexisting views of MO and its direction-nor should it be seen as the Hillel House Above the Harlem River where summer and winter break trips become a substitute for Ameilus BaTorah as the prerequisite for growth as a Ben or Bas Torah and becoming a Talmid Chacham.If I were to design a sales pitch for YC SCW, I would emend the pitch of the USMC and describe YC and SCW as a place for a “few good young men and women.”

  50. ruvie says:

    r’ joel – i also believe that tuoro has similar budget issues and will be retrenching as well. their model is not sustainable.

  51. Steve Brizel says:

    Aiwac wrote:

    “You didn’t address my point which is that more chumrot = more financial burden. Waxing lyrical about “yotze lechol hade’ot doesn’t change the fact that many Orthodox communities are effectively pricing people out of the frum community (or into bankruptcy”

    Who says that all Jews have to live in the communities with the highest costs, especially in the US? While aliyah is clearly at least a mitzvah kiyumis, costs alone have led many to go on aliyah at the best time-before their kids reach school age.

  52. aiwac says:

    Steven,

    Kashrut mehadrin^10 inflation of prices is a big problem on this side of the pond as well.

  53. Steve Brizel says:

    Ruvie wrote:

    “r’ joel – i also believe that tuoro has similar budget issues and will be retrenching as well. their model is not sustainable”

    As long as Touro markets itself in the frum world as place for the Charedi world to get a college degree Bkedushah UvTaharah with none of the ostensible hashkafic conflicts present at YU, I would suggest that Touro will be around for a while.

  54. ruvie says:

    steve b. – i am not saying it wont be around but the same can be said for yu. touro looses money on the college and makes it up on its pre-professional schools which depends on major government money and loans to students – that cash flow is stopping/slowing down from what i hear (i am not in this field but talked to some that know the finances of both universities). it has nothing to do with hashkafa. its economics. they are early in the process of restructuring – whatever that means. also, touro builot its college on no real faculty but adjuncts – not sustainable either over the long run for quality university.

  55. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    the matza bakeries,i am sure, donate in line with many / most food business to tomchei shabat type orgs. (who do donsate, pretty substantial.)

    the question of chumrot can be framed as: is a poor person collecting from such funds entitled to have his chumrot met at the expense of the public / donors, who may not even observe many such chumrot?

    yu is definitely cutting back on number of classes offered, per my friends on the faculty.

    regarding your promised post on “glatt” — make sure it discusses “beit yosef” too. otherwise, dont post yet.

  56. just visiting says:

    Sort of on-topic: does anyone know why YU ranks 14th out of 1251 universities for faculty pay (ranked by average salary of full professors)? At first glance, it looks like gross mismanagement given that YU’s secular education and selectivity is not at the level of most other similarly-paying schools. Not to mention the financial troubles. So maybe I am missing something that would make sense out of this? Maybe they’re making up the difference somewhere other than salary, for example by providing sparser benefits or pensions?

    See http://chronicle.com/article/Interactive-Table-Average/131433/ for salary data.

  57. emma says:

    looks like those numbers are for faculty at the whole university, not just yeshiva college, since it’s 812 “total faculty.” If so, perhaps a higher proportion of YU faculty teach at the medical or law schools than at other universities with a broader range of offerings and larger undergrad programs. Med and Law prof salaries are higher than English professors, by a lot, and may skew the average…

  58. joel rich says:

    what do you need clarification on? simply, they are retrenching as much as they can because they over spent and the goals were never realistic. the biggest gut will be in the administration. cutting a few courses here or there is window dressing.
    ==========================================
    the seifa seems inconsistent with word on the street but i don’t know. interesting is in corporate america it’s not unusal for top leader(ship) to take significant short term comp cuts in this kind of situation to send a message of shared pain.

    clarification on how the cuts were allocated and how they cohere with the vision.
    ML

  59. joel rich says:

    r’sb,
    if the alignment is that good, what percentage of r”y send their kids to an mo elementary school, mta (or similar) or yu? what percentage publically endorse the yc curriculum and courses?

    r’ruvie,
    what are the comprables for yu/touro costs, yu/queens-whatever yeshiva? how many see a difference hashkafically (other than yu=mo=bad)
    ML

    ML

  60. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Ruvie: “Touro built its College on no real faculty, but adjuncts.” Really? This seems seriously out date to me. My son, to take a purely random example, Dr. Zvi Kaplan, a Columbia PhD., is a full time faculty member of Lander College of Women in the area of History. Not to brag, which I will now proceed to do, but his first book was very well received and reviewed, he has published or had articles accepted in such distinguished journals as Jewish Social Studies, Modern Judaism, and Journal of Jewish Studies, and more is in the pipeline. Seems pretty real to me.

  61. ruvie says:

    lawrence kaplan – could be outdated but what percentage of the faculty are full time professors at the university? what percentage is adjuncts and how does that compare to other comparable universities?
    i am sure your son is a real scholar but i said ” Tuoro built its college” – past tense – things could have change. but the observation that they loose money at the college level and use the pre-professional divisions (which service mostly non jewish students) to fund their college – i think is accurate (please correct me if i am wrong). there is nothing wrong with that – they just have financial issues too – too early to tell to what extent. btw, bernie lander was one of the smartest businessman to run a university – he had a knack for building and making money (just an observation).

  62. Steve Brizel says:

    R Joel Rich asked:

    “if the alignment is that good, what percentage of r”y send their kids to an mo elementary school, mta (or similar) or yu? what percentage publically endorse the yc curriculum and courses?”

    I don’t think that YU has ever had such a litmus test for its present or past presidents or RY. I do know that the RY, when it comes to the the chinuch of their children, send them to the elementary and high schools that they view in their best interests and development of their children-which AFAIK is the same goal as other parents-regardless of their hashkafa. I think that the RY have the right to express their views on which courses in YC aid or thwart the Avodas HaShem of their students.

  63. Anon. says:

    “regarding titanic, must mention the straus family (of a&s macys fame) was on the titanic, coming back from a visit to ottoman palestine (actually called syria then). rav shmuel salant advised them to stay for pesach; one brother did, and survived, the other went on the titanic. ”

    Since R. Salant died three years before the Titanic sinking, this story, like so many others, is false.

  64. Steve Brizel says:

    FWIW, my wife and I saw this superb film this afternoon.http://www.moviefone.com/movie/footnote/10059605/main
    The setting of academic Talmudic study is merely the backdrop to the underlying themes of the film. Even if you view such studies with great skepticism , that the same are not in any way Torah Lishmah or devote your career and spare time to the same, that is merely the setting for the unfolding of the greater issues explored in the film.The film is an exploration of the price of truth and how a father and son relate to each other when a son has surpassed a father’s goals in life, after choosing a wholly different intellectual approach are powerful emotional issues.The portrayals of both father and son and the irony of the son, whose research the father viewed as less than second rate, writing the judges’ comments for an award which should have gone to the son after the son reached one of the pinacles of his academic career plus the references to all of the au courant stars in Academic Jewish studies and how the son wound up emulating his father’s withering classroom style were superb.Furthermore, the meeting between the Israel Prize Committee members and the son was an especially riveting scene. While the ending of this otherwise excellent film, with its focus on the emotional price of truth, left me hanging for more, I wholeheartedly recommend the film to anyone interested in these issues.

  65. Steve Brizel says:

    Joel Rich wrote:

    “what are the comprables for yu/touro costs, yu/queens-whatever yeshiva? how many see a difference hashkafically (other than yu=mo=bad)”

    One must distinguish initially between Yeshivas Ohr HaChaim, which is a Touro funded and affiliated yeshiva that is a way station for talmidim of many yeshivos in transit from learning in a wide variety of yeshivos in Israel. Lander College for Men, OTH, was set up as an alternative to YU. I remain unconvinced from my observations that, despite the presence of such RY as R Parness and R Bronspiegel at Lander College for Men, there is much of a hashkafic difference between the average YU student and the average LCM student. Lander College for Women , OTOH, appeals to young women, who want to go to college, get a degree in SPOT, and who would never think of attending SCW because it is simply far too MO for their taste. Lander College for Women attracts students returning from some seminaries, as well as women from many charedi communities who are seeking the wherewithal to become kollel wives, and other skills in life.

  66. ruvie says:

    steve b. – “there is much of a hashkafic difference between the average YU student and the average LCM student.”
    how times have changed. originally, according to someone in the first graduating class of tuoro, that tuoro was viewed and pitched as YU with women – i.e. coed classes.

  67. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Steve Brizel: Pardon my ignorance , but what is SPOT?

    My son tells me that many of his students are truly excellent. Academically, they could get into the best universities, but they go to Touro because of frumkeit and because of its acceptability, as opposed to YU, in the (moderate) Haredi community. Many of them, lo aleynu, go on to develop serious intellectual and academic interests, and a few, lo aleynu squared, even go on to Graduate School in History or Jewish Studies.

    I have also heard from several sources that Touro has tried to attract young MO female HS students that have hithrto just considered Stern ( e.g., Maayanot seniors), but so far with little success.

  68. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    ruvie — “bernie lander was one of the smartest businessman to run a university – he had a knack for building and making money ”

    actually, he developed a number of “schools” that specialize in non jewish (mostly minority) students and convinvced various state officials to fund those undergrad schools (tuition assistance, loans, grants, etc) for different markets, and used the “profits” (and efficiencies of scale, etc) to make (what is now known as) LCM (and women) a cost effective institution (and prob, seed money for the grad schools, which garner prestige (and more govt $) and i guess profits.)

    also like many cuny schools, he hires a good number of top notch (i.e., PhDs, etc) professors which increases his likeability by those state agencies / grant givers. (not that he really pays them top dollar; and they are mostly part timers, prof kaplan jr, excepted, i guess)

    i guess they have success in recruiting flatbush and five towns, but not teaneck. diff demographic.

  69. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    instead of (or besides) concentrating on children of YU RY’s, how about the alumni as a whole?

    i once asked admissions (when i had some influence, pre RJ) and they declined to look into it. too controversial, and they might have been afraid of the results.

  70. Steve Brizel says:

    Larry Kaplan-SPOT is Speech, Physical or Occupational Therapy. Just curious-does Touro have a masters or doctoral level program similar to BRGS?

  71. Steve Brizel says:

    Ruvie parsed my words as follows:

    “steve b. – “there is much of a hashkafic differenc
    e between the average YU student and the average LCM student.”

    Actually, I said that I remain unconvinced that there is much of a hashkafic difference, if any, between the avrage YU student and the average Lander College for Men student.

  72. Steve Brizel says:

    Larry Kaplan-I would tend to agree wioth the following statement in response to yours re Touro’s attempts at recruitment:

    “I have also heard from several sources that Touro has tried to attract young MO female HS students that have hithrto just considered Stern ( e.g., Maayanot seniors), but so far with little success.

    i guess they have success in recruiting flatbush and five towns, but not teaneck. diff demographic.”

    One should not underestimate the fact that Touro has had much success beyond Flatbush and the Five Towns for LCW-there is no shortage of students from Monsey, Lakewood and Passaic, as well from certain seminaries whose students would never consider going to SCW because of perceptions that SCW is too modern.

  73. Steve Brizel says:

    Ruvie-one other aspect of Touro’s pitch when opened which led to YU’s opening of a business school, was the fact that Touro also emphasized the same, which prior thereto had been viewed with hostility by the powers that be at YU as contrary to YU’s image as a liberal arts college, as opposed to providing a pre Parnasah platform.

  74. Steve Brizel says:

    MiMedinat HaYam wrote in part:

    “i once asked admissions (when i had some influence, pre RJ) and they declined to look into it. too controversial, and they might have been afraid of the results”

    How about thinking of how many YU alumni you know and whether any, some or all of their children followed in their footsteps? IMO, that would make for a fascinating sociological survey.

  75. H G says:

    1. I don’t think that Lander for Women is necessarily attracting such a right-wing crowd (though I’m really not sure).

    2. Touro has full-time professors. But they have A LOT of adjuncts.

  76. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    HG: I think your point 2 is just right. Among their full time Professors are Dr. Maya Katz and, more recently, Dr. Natalia Aleksiun. Both are extremely accomplished.

    Steve B: Touro has a Graduate School of Jewish Studies which awards an M.A. You can google it. Its Dean is Prof. Michael Shmidman. Unlike Revel, Touro does not have a PhD program. OTOH, Touro has a Graduate program in Israel (its Dean used to be and, for all I know, still is Dr.Carmi Horowitz) which is very well known. Thus, from a strictly academic Jewish Studies point of view, Touro in Israel has a strong presence, while YU, le-daavonenu ha-rav, has none!

  77. Hirhurim says:

    RABBI Michael Shmidman ;)

  78. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: Cute. I was, of course, referring to him in his academic capacity as Dean. But why not “RABBI Carmi Horowitz”? Both incidentally, like myself, have semichah from YU and PhDs from Harvard from Rabbi Prof. Isadore Twersky.

  79. mycroft says:

    “Steve Brizel on April 11, 2012 at 6:18 pm
    R Joel Rich asked:

    “if the alignment is that good, what percentage of r”y send their kids to an mo elementary school, mta (or similar) or yu? what percentage publically endorse the yc curriculum and courses?”

    I don’t think that YU has ever had such a litmus test for its present or past presidents or RY. I do know that the RY, when it comes to the the chinuch of their children, send them to the elementary and high schools that they view in their best interests and development of their children-which AFAIK is the same goal as other parents-regardless of their hashkafa. I think that the RY have the right to express their views on which courses in YC aid or thwart the Avodas HaShem of their students”

    Steve: You state “I don’t think that YU has ever had such a litmus test for its present or past presidents or RY. I do know that the RY, when it comes to the the chinuch of their children, send them to the elementary and high schools that they view in their best interests and development of their children-which AFAIK is the same goal as other parents-regardless of their hashkafa”
    You don’t object if a RY sends their childto a school to the right of RIETS butI doubt you’d accept a RY who sent their child to Heschel? The logical difference ones hashkafa you accept as legitimate andthe other one you don’t. But either way the RY is stating that he does not believe in the hashkafa of the place that is paying his salary.

  80. IH says:

    Prof. Kaplan — but does Touro have any legacy equivalent to YU’s Dr. Joseph B. Soloveitchik?

  81. Anon. says:

    “Regarding titanic, must mention the straus family (of a&s macys fame) was on the titanic, coming back from a visit to ottoman palestine (actually called syria then). rav shmuel salant advised them to stay for pesach; one brother did, and survived, the other went on the titanic. ”

    The Land of Israel was not called Syria. It was called Palestine.

  82. aiwac says:

    “The Land of Israel was not called Syria. It was called Palestine”

    Actually it was called neither. Part was called the Vilayet of Beirut and part the vilayet of Damascus as well as the special district of Jeruslaem.

  83. mycroft says:

    “joel rich on April 11, 2012 at 4:00 pm
    what do you need clarification on? simply, they are retrenching as much as they can because they over spent and the goals were never realistic. the biggest gut will be in the administration. cutting a few courses here or there is window dressing.
    ==========================================
    the seifa seems inconsistent with word on the street but i don’t know. interesting is in corporate america it’s not unusal for top leader(ship) to take significant short term comp cuts in this kind of situation to send a message of shared pain”

    Check the 990s of past few years and see how much if any comp cuts were made in the top leadership.

  84. IH says:

    aiwac — per (Michael) Makovsky’s “Churchill’s Promised Land” map on p. 73 what you have as the “Vilayet of Damascus” he has as “Vilayet of Syria” which in turn was composed of the Sanjak of Damascus and the Sanjak of Hauran.

  85. aiwac says:

    IH,

    The Syria Vilayet was also called the Damascus Vilayet.

  86. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    the ottoman’s considered it part of the syria governership. it was palestine, governed by “syria”. which shows even more how unimportant “palestine” was to the arab world till (i’ll date it to, for purposes of discussion, though this shouldnt be the forum for the discussion) “shivat tziyon.”

    (and if it wasnt r shmuel salant, it must have been his successor (the aderet???)

    steve b — my discussion with admission was a prelude to such a study, which i saw they werent interested in.

    a proper personal study would involve how many are still SS, how many RW (with the inherent definition issues), and what schools they send their children to, with an allowance for out of town issues. and broken down by year graduated / decade. i mentioned its a good topic for a grad paper / BA thesis.

    HG — “Touro has full-time professors. But they have A LOT of adjuncts.”

    second the motion. ditto CUNY. the model, as i mentioned.

    larry k — “Thus, from a strictly academic Jewish Studies point of view, Touro in Israel has a strong presence, while YU, le-daavonenu ha-rav, has none!”

    YU has almost no israel presence. they rent out their real estate, they subcontract out their yeshiva program (with inherent governance problems, leading to even less involvement.

    its obviously a conscious decision, made many years ago. they should have expanded it, when they had it.

  87. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    aiwac — missed your post. yes, but it was goverened out of damascus. i believe the term syria is french in origin. or at least in usage. (and hauran is in present day turkey, in the syrian border region; prob where the refugees / shooting are now.)

  88. IH says:

    As someone who owns an apartment overlooking Anabe Park, I am particularly incensed by:

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/female-volunteer-removed-from-circus-stage-after-haredi-woman-protests-1.423881

    which demonstrates an Israeli Charedi position of: מה ששלי שלי ומה ששלך שלי

  89. mycroft says:

    ““Many machmirim argue that there are no costs or trade-offs to mehadrin (what could it hurt?). The truth is that there is a serious tradeoff in that it hurts the poorer and even middle class frum Jews. The more mehadrin something is, the more the company, restaurant &c has to shell out to the kashrut agency.”

    Such a premise which IMO, is representative of a genre of stereotypical thinking and urban mythology in its own way, ignores the simple fact that many people, not just in the area of Kashrus, but in many areas of Halacha view being Yotze Kol HaDeos and accepting upon themselves Chumros as a means of demonstrating their Ahavas HaShem that they are willing to go beyond MeIkar HaDin in as many aspects of their lives as possible. I don’t think that many of us would buy Tefilin or a Sefer Torah that wasn’t of the highest quality or use sefarim that did not represent a carefully edited work”

    One can be a Zaddik with ones own money but one can’t demand that others spend their money on chumros. Especially galling can be calls for achdus which almost always mean everyone is forced to pay for someone elses chumrah.

  90. aiwac says:

    “Especially galling can be calls for achdus which almost always mean everyone is forced to pay for someone elses chumrah”

    Exactly.

  91. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    IH: No, obviously, it does not have such a legacy. Neither, for that matter, does YCT. Both are relatively new institutions, not to mention the Rav was had be-doro.

    Mycroft: A RW Yeshiva is still Orthodox. Heschel is not. A fair comparison would be if a RY sent his son to Flatbush or Ramaz, which are to the “left” of RIETS. What if he sent him to New Jew in Boston? The issue of who is paying the RY’s salary is irrelevant, though in your view, alas, money is NEVER irrelevant.

  92. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Steve B: Perhaps some of us may not be able to afford Tefillin which are of the highest quality.

  93. IH says:

    In this case, who is paying the RY’s salary is relevant. The Silicon Valley expression is “eating your own dogfood”.

  94. mycroft says:

    “You didn’t address my point which is that more chumrot = more financial burden. Waxing lyrical about “yotze lechol hade’ot doesn’t change the fact that many Orthodox communities are effectively pricing people out of the frum community (or into bankruptcy).”

    No one is concerned that Orthodoxy has become a club for the above average income person-an average income person can’t afford basic Orthodoxy. Basic Orthodoxy requiresgoingto day schools which require above average income-average not welcome.

  95. mycroft says:

    “Mycroft: A RW Yeshiva is still Orthodox. Heschel is not. A fair comparison would be if a RY sent his son to Flatbush or Ramaz, which are to the “left” of RIETS.”

    Fair enough.

    “What if he sent him to New Jew in Boston?”
    I am not very familiar withHeschel and am not familiar with Gann Academy-but al regel achat a check of their websites show they both claim to be pluralistic. Both have rabbis ordained from non Orthodox institutions.

    “The issue of who is paying the RY’s salary is irrelevant, though in your view, alas, money is NEVER irrelevant.”
    I certainly have not checked our posts but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me if I wrote more comments that never mention money or economics than comments that you discuss how money helps determine peoples decisions.

    “Lawrence Kaplan on April 11, 2012 at 11:43 pm
    Steve B: Perhaps some of us may not be able to afford Tefillin which are of the highest quality.”
    I doubt anyone in my family ever had Tfillin of”highest” quality -always ma

  96. mycroft says:

    Obviopusly , one has to ensure that one is buying kosher tfillin from a reliable place but hughest quality.?

  97. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “Basic Orthodoxy requires going to day schools which require above average income-average not welcome.”

    The first half is unfortunately true — the “unfortunately” because of the cost, although the going to day schools part is fortunate in that it has given us a better educated and probably more observant amcha. The second part is a trope that Mycroft likes to smear the Orthodox community with, unfairly and without support.

  98. mycroft says:

    “Joseph Kaplan on April 12, 2012 at 7:02 am
    “Basic Orthodoxy requires going to day schools which require above average income-average not welcome.”

    The first half is unfortunately true — the “unfortunately” because of the cost, although the going to day schools part is fortunate in that it has given us a better educated and probably more observant amcha.”
    I will agree that for those who are both academically able and come from families that can afford day schools they are positive-but it leaves out huge amounts of potential population. The day school establishment likes to take credit for demographic changes-there was a higher percentage of shomer Shabbos immigrants to US after 1933 than from before 1920. It is much easier to be Shomer Shabbos now than a hundred years ago. When my mother took the College Boards there was no Sunday administration-she had to be proctered in the administrators house from before Shabbos until she and 1 other person from this decent sized Jewish city took the College Boards on Saturday night early Sunday morning. It was more difficult to be an Orthodox Jew then. BTW don’t negate the knowledge that people learnt in Talmud Torahs. My mother attended a 15 hour a week one-not much less hours than limudei kodesh in many day schools. My father I believe only had about 4 years of a day school education until about 10-melamed occasional time after that at night. Both probably knew more than their children who attended day schools/Yeshivot for at least K-12.

    “The second part is a trope that Mycroft likes to smear the Orthodox community with, unfairly and without support”

    How many families whose main breadwinners are Starbucks employees do any of us know who are part of the MO world?
    Are my charges accurate? What is the makeup financially ofthe American population? What is the makeup financially ofthe MO population?

  99. AN says:

    When you say it was not “called” Palestine, what do you mean? All sorts of documents refer to it as such.

  100. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “What is the makeup financially ofthe American population? What is the makeup financially ofthe MO population?”

    Those are interesting questions. First we would need some answers. And then some serious analysis. And then, depending on the answers and analysis, your smears may be justified. But until then, you should keep your venom to yourself.

    As for day schools. Yes, it is easier to be orthodox today, thank God and thanks to those who held the fort until we got where we are today. And yes, the TT system had some successes. But as long as we’re speaking anecdotally, I remember the people my father’s age in our MO shul who were shomrei torah umitzvot. Those, like my father, who had attended day schools/yeshivot had, in general, significantly more Jewish knowledge than the others. And certainly more knowledge than those educated in TTs who left Orthodoxy by the droves. And I’m old enough to remember a few TT educated people my age in my shul, and again, my Jewish knowledge and that of my day school friends was significantly greater than theirs. There are certainly lots of problems with our day school educational system beginning, but not ending, with its cost, but to posit that a TT system would rectify these problems without causing greater ones is living, I believe, in a dreamworld.

  101. ruvie says:

    mycroft – “Check the 990s of past few years and see how much if any comp cuts were made in the top leadership.”

    irrelevant. my point is that RJ went on a spending spree in hiring talent and building buildings. now the board said enough when the numbers aren’t there(money and students). anyone who can get a job outside of yu(many can’t) have their resume out there and hoping. YU is perceived to be an unstable place now for employment – unless you were recently hired with a contract. expect many heads to roll – through attrition too – in administration and services but probably not much in faculty. but the budget needs to be aligned with reality – build it and they will come is no longer operable.

  102. joel rich says:

    modiin , beer sheva, matzot – can we ever be a klal other than everyone agreeing to the most machmir position?
    ML

  103. ruvie says:

    Joel Rich – “the seifa seems inconsistent with word on the street but i don’t know.” – interesting. i hear the opposite from some inside.
    btw, touro costs – i believe – is under 23k a year – $575 a credit. the greater use of adjuncts helps them keep their costs down but its the profitable programs – as described by MMY – that make sit work.

  104. Hirhurim says:

    I don’t have a problem with the Beer Sheva incident. It was just a one day event. The problem was the poor customer service.

  105. aiwac says:

    Official Ottoman documents?!

  106. IH says:

    I don’t have a problem with the Beer Sheva incident. It was just a one day event. The problem was the poor customer service.

    Gil — I gather you have never spent Chol ha’Moed with kids in Israel. How about closing the Central Park Zoo on Memorial Day Weekend to anyone but a particular group?

  107. IH says:

    In Israel, btw, no one checks whether a Zoo or Park is open on Chol ha’Moed Pesach — it is a given they will be: it’s the peak visiting period.

  108. Hirhurim says:

    I gather you have never spent Chol ha’Moed with kids in Israel

    No but I’ve spent it in NY where most museums are closed on Mondays. Always check for special events.

  109. IH says:

    Classic American to impose his norms on other cultures. That’s not the way it works there.

    Everything is open. The question is whether it’ll be too crowded to enjoy — and the only way to find out is to go.

    I had a nice, if hot, walk around Hula Lake Park a few years ago because there was a 2 hour wait for the free bicycle offer :-) Plenty of Charedim biking around, in mixed company, btw.

  110. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil: I don’t get your point. Museums in NYC are always closed Mondays. Everyone knows this. If a group wants to organize a special event for a Monday, this is fine. But this was Hol ha-Moed in Israel on a regularly scheduled open day, during, as IH rightfully noted, peak season. To have closed it off for a special group was simply crazy. IH’s analogy to closing the Central Park Zoo for Memorial Day Weekend is very apt. You are way off here.

  111. HAGTBG says:

    I agree with Gil that had the closure been well publicized, closing a private (even if popular) venue down for one day is appropriate. However, that was not the case here. The closure was not well publicized. And the zoo is reported to be public. If so, that would be like having a day when you could only use the public postal service if you dress to haredi standards.

  112. Steve Brizel says:

    I thoughtb that the following linked Dvar Torah was worthy of discussion http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2012/moadim/rsch_pesach.html

  113. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “You don’t object if a RY sends their childto a school to the right of RIETS butI doubt you’d accept a RY who sent their child to Heschel? The logical difference ones hashkafa you accept as legitimate andthe other one you don’t. But either way the RY is stating that he does not believe in the hashkafa of the place that is paying his salary”

    Mycroft-I think that there is much in the way of an unmined sociological survey that would prove that there are many YU grads who send their kids to yeshivos far to the right of YU and many who send to schools which are nondenominational or even Schechter schools. The former represents a clear choice for a more intensive Torah education and the latter represents a departure from the norms of the Orthodox community. AFAIK, “be true to your school” was a great Beach Boys song, but hardly a decisive factor in choosing the place of one’s childrens’ Jewish education.

  114. Steve Brizel says:

    I agree with R Gil re the Beer Sheva closing incident. FWIW, if one is NYC during Chol HaMoed Pesach, one can find Chasidim and Litvishe Yeshiva parents and Kolleleit with their families literally everywhere in venues which are by no means exclusively Charedi venues at any time-Citifield, Six Flags, New York Hall of Science. The Yated’s Chol HaMoed supplement is hardly limited to “Frummie girl movies” and Yeshiva boys choirs concerts.

  115. “Please don’t read us in the smallest room”

    i thought this was going to link an editorial in one of the frum newspapers (although some would argue they deserve to be read only in the bathroom).

  116. Steve Brizel says:

    Re the Beer Sheva incident, perhaps the use of the zoo and its facilities was arranged for between a Charedi group and the proprietor/city of Beer Sheva, and there was insufficient advertising.

  117. mycroft says:

    “Joseph Kaplan on April 12, 2012 at 8:38 am
    “What is the makeup financially ofthe American population? What is the makeup financially ofthe MO population?”

    Those are interesting questions. First we would need some answers.

    “Americans’ wages are falling, perhaps a reason why pessimism about their personal finances is now the lowest it’s been in a decade.

    The annual median wage fell in 2010 for the second year in a row to $26,364, a 1.2 percent drop from 2009, and the lowest level since 1999, according to David Cay Johnston at Reuters.”

    for average wages higher than median incomes “The wage data are based on wages subject to Federal income taxes and contributions to deferred compensation plans.

    The average amounts of wages calculated directly from our data were $39,036.67 and $39,959.30 for 2009 and 2010, respectively. “from http://www.ssa.gov/oact/COLA/AWI.html

    from http://www.jcpa.org/cjc/cjc-waxman-f05.htm
    Chaim
    waxman writes in part-he is a retired Prof and musmach-”The “Cost of Jewish Living” and its Impact
    This author has argued that the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS) data indicate that Orthodox families have lower annual incomes than Conservative and Reform families, and that the “cost of Jewish living,” while affecting all the denominations, is higher for the Orthodox:

    There is a gap of more than $10,000 between the mean family incomes of Orthodox and Conservative, and a similar gap between the mean family incomes of Conservative and Reform baby boomers. Almost two-thirds of the Orthodox baby boomers reported combined annual family incomes of less than $45,000, whereas only half of the Conservatives and 42.5 percent of the Reform did…. Since Orthodox have more children than Conservative and Reform do, this means that the economic constraints are even greater than these data indicate. The lower income of the Orthodox, combined with their larger families, means they have considerably less disposable income than others. In addition, their ideological commitments compel them to join synagogues at a higher rate than others, . . . and to send their children to private day schools, as well as to contribute to a variety of other Jewish communal institutions. There is, thus, ample evidence that the Orthodox are disproportionally affected by what has been called, “the high cost of Jewish living.”23

    The lower income of the Orthodox continued to be evident in the 2001 NJPS. For example, of those identifying as Orthodox, 80 percent had incomes of less than $100,000, compared to 77 percent for Conservative and 73 percent for Reform. Five percent of those who identified as Conservative had incomes of $300,000 or more, compared to 3 percent for Reform and only 1 percent for Orthodox. It must be taken into account, however, that the Orthodox have larger families. In other words, although most American Orthodox Jews are middle-class, the community’s significantly higher cost of Jewish living persists…Bubis assumes that the cost is not a barrier for the Orthodox community because their Jewishness is the most important aspect of their identity. However, he does not consider that cost is a factor for many Orthodox Jews as well and may play a role in the fact that Orthodoxy has not grown as rapidly as one might have expected. It may also play a role in the haredization of American Orthodoxy because the haredi community is more tightly knit and has much greater provision for hesed, “good works” of all kinds, for those who do not have the means”Note Waxman refers to the Chareidi community hesed not to the MO community Chesed for its less fortunate.

    “And then some serious analysis. And then, depending on the answers and analysis, your smears may be justified. But until then, you should keep your venom to yourself”
    This was just a very superficial internet search for an issue that has been known for decades.

  118. i don’t remember when i read the article, but was the zoo rented out by a haredi group or did the zoo decide to bar non-haredim? the former is more palatable than the latter, although there would still a problem with a publicly-funded venue restricting admission in this manner.

    “if one is NYC during Chol HaMoed Pesach, one can find Chasidim and Litvishe Yeshiva parents and Kolleleit with their families literally everywhere in venues which are by no means exclusively Charedi venues ”

    correct, so what’s the problem in beer sheva?

  119. mycroft says:

    “. AFAIK, “be true to your school” was a great Beach Boys song, but hardly a decisive factor in choosing the place of one’s childrens’ Jewish education.”

    But recognize that sending ones child to a school of a different hashkafa is telling your students that you don’t believe in the hashkafa of what/where you are teaching.

  120. IH says:

    As a public service, I’d like to clarify that the Met Museum of Art is generally closed on Mondays, but for the past several years is opens specially on holiday Mondays; MOMA is generally open Monday and closed on Tuesday.

    It is rare, if ever, that either is closed for a private event during operating hours (although the internal Temple of Dendur is sometimes closed to prepare for a private event).

    Also, The Jewish Museum is open on Shabbat for no fee so that Shomer Shabbat visitors may enjoy it (after shul).

  121. re. the palestine question above, in my research i’ve found that “palestine” was the standard term for westerners (at least among americans, brits and germans) in the 19th c. (“holy land” somewhat less). the other names were ottoman political/administration designations.

  122. “But recognize that sending ones child to a school of a different hashkafa is telling your students that you don’t believe in the hashkafa of what/where you are teaching.”

    agreed 100%. there are some other good reasons not to send a kid to the same school a parent works (e.g., distance, special needs, etc.). but generally it’s telling when teachers send their kids to a different school. either the teachers don’t agree with hashkafa of the school or it is academically poor

  123. joel rich says:

    r’abba
    which was my original point
    ML

  124. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “BTW don’t negate the knowledge that people learnt in Talmud Torahs”

    Let me offer the following first hand dissenting opinion.I went to TT for 4 years before my Bar Mitzvah . I learned how to daven the Shabbos Tefilos and say a Haftorah and a smattering of Jewish history, as well as the elements of the Seder Leil Pesach, based on a model seder which was conducted every year for the parents’ “nachas.” That was the sum and substance of my TT education, which competed with Little League, and other extracurricular events and interests as we entered junior high school, and which most, if not all of my classmates abandoned after they reached their Bar Mitzvahs. In my small town, where we had only an O shul, the Bas mitzvah was still seen as a RJ innovation. ( FWIW, the mainstreaming of the concept of Bas Mitzvah, however it is marked within the Orthodox world, is a subject worthy of study in its own right.)

    I never learned Chumash, Mishnah or Talmud or about what constituted Shemiras Shabbos , weekday Tefilos, or even basic mitzvos such as Bircas HaMazon, until I went to NCSY events, and my senior year in high school as part of my preparation for my entry to YU”s JSS program, when I requested that my local rav ZL and I try to learn Gemara from a paperback copy of Perek HaMafkid in the prehistoric era prior to the arrival of Steinzaltz and ArtScroll. (Our rav ZL preferred to work from the Haschalas Gemara with a rough translation as opposed to Soncino). I don’t recall ever being more intimidated or humbled when I realized that the children of our rav ZL , some of whom were barely of Bar Mitzvah age, knew a lot more Gemara and their way around the text, than I did at age 18.

    The notion that any Jewish man or woman can emerge as a textually literate and halachically aware Jew from the TT system per se, as opposed to a K-12 immersion in a yeshiva is IMO a highly questiobnnable, if not wholly dubious premise. I think that the average first grader in any yeshiva knows about Torah and Mitzvos than most, if not all, who “progressed” through what is generously called a “supplementary Jewish education” and is far more observant, passionately concerned about, and aware of his or her Jewish world than anyone who matriculated through the supplementary school system

    Mycroft-I think that your extreme economic comparisons ignore the fact that there are many within the MO world who are middle class, or if they are upper middle class professionals, their incomes go for multiple tuitions. Viewing the MO world as a community with a lot of $ ignores the fact that a self employed business who is his own business has the potential to make more than a professional. Like it or not, as long as we are in this Goldeneh Galus, tuition is a nasty fact of life, regardless of whether one is home for Pesach and the summer or away at the location of one’s desire.

  125. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “I agree with R Gil re the Beer Sheva closing incident. FWIW, if one is NYC during Chol HaMoed Pesach, one can find Chasidim and Litvishe Yeshiva parents and Kolleleit with their families literally everywhere in venues which are by no means exclusively Charedi venues at any time.”

    ISTM that while you say you agree with Gil, your explanation is exactly the opposite. In NYC the Hareidim are, as you say, all over the place together with all the non-Hareidim (like my wife, children, and grandson at the Van Sorn trainride and zoo a few days ago. If they can do it there, why must they exclude in Beer Sheva?

  126. “Unlike Revel, Touro does not have a PhD program.”

    practically speaking, revel does not really have a phd program either. and i don’t understand what point there was to bring up revel to begin with. for the most part it serves the special needs of YU students and is not comparable (in terms of mission) with other jewish studies grad programs.

    RUVIE:

    i’m not sure if it’s entirely true that touro can keep undergrad tuition low because it is funded by the grad programs. the grad programs are not any more expensive than the same programs in other universities so i wonder if there is really extra money in touro’s case to shift to the undergrad? i would think it’s clear that touro’s low tuition is because it skimps on faculty (prof kalpan jr notwithstanding), course/degree offerings, facilities, services, extracuriculars, library, etc.

  127. mycroft says:

    “abba’s rantings on April 12, 2012 at 11:29 am
    “But recognize that sending ones child to a school of a different hashkafa is telling your students that you don’t believe in the hashkafa of what/where you are teaching.”

    agreed 100%. there are some other good reasons not to send a kid to the same school a parent works (e.g., distance, special needs, etc.). but generally it’s telling when teachers send their kids to a different school. either the teachers don’t agree with hashkafa of the school or it is academically poor”

    Agreed-but with one caveat-if they send the child to a different school due to commuting distance it is relevant what school they sendthe child to-a Rebbe in Ramaz or SAR who lives in Booklyn might not be expected to send his childto those schools but if he sent the child to Chaim Berlin rather than a Flatbush it means that he does not believe in the hashkafa of Ramaz or SAR.

  128. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “My mother attended a 15 hour a week one-not much less hours than limudei kodesh in many day schools. My father I believe only had about 4 years of a day school education until about 10-melamed occasional time after that at night. Both probably knew more than their children who attended day schools/Yeshivot for at least K-12″

    This is an often voiced comment. However, the same is based on an extremely static and limited view of what constitutes a Torah education. Viewing ones’ parents as role models for their generation is wonderful-but to consider them as such for our generation when that which may have been Mutar is Assur and vice versa and when a letter from a rav allows you by virtue of law to take the SATS on Sunday should underscore the fact that Jewish education cannot and should not be viewed as a part time venture for anyone.

  129. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote”

    “But recognize that sending ones child to a school of a different hashkafa is telling your students that you don’t believe in the hashkafa of what/where you are teaching”

    We disagree. Talk to any of the RY-when it comes to the chinuch of their childen, they face the same choices as any other parent, with hashkafic concerns being only one of many factors.

  130. Steve Brizel says:

    Abba wrote in response:

    “if one is NYC during Chol HaMoed Pesach, one can find Chasidim and Litvishe Yeshiva parents and Kolleleit with their families literally everywhere in venues which are by no means exclusively Charedi venues ”

    correct, so what’s the problem in beer sheva

    One should never how American Chasidim and Litvishe Yidden spend their spare time in comparison to their brethren in Israel. You are comparing two vastly different worlds in hashkafa.

  131. Joseph Kaplan says:

    Mycroft, Maybe I’m missing something here, so please correct me if I am. I understood your original statement (to which I took exception) to mean that the cost of being Orthodox is keeping many lower income people out of that community. But your post on statistics says, AIUI (and perhaps I’m not understanding it correctly), that there are lots of lower income Orthodox — both in comparison to Conservative and Reform and in absolute terms as well. So although it’s tough for them (no one disputes that), don’t your numbers belie your original statement which you have made many times?

  132. mycroft says:

    In general I agree with the substance of your comments below

    “”Mycroft-I think that your extreme economic comparisons ignore the fact that there are many within the MO world who are middle class, or if they are upper middle class professionals, their incomes go for multiple tuitions.”

    Certainly there are many within MO who are middle class and upper class middle income professionals-I have argued in general unless you are at least middle class MO has no use for you. That incomes go for multiple tuitions is just part of the bars to entry into the MO world.

    “Viewing the MO world as a community with a lot of $ ignores the fact that a self employed business who is his own business has the potential to make more than a professional.”
    The vast majority of people who start businesses do not succeed-we see a survivorship bias by looking at successful businessmen.

    “Like it or not, as long as we are in this Goldeneh Galus, tuition is a nasty fact of life, regardless of whether one is home for Pesach and the summer or away at the location of one’s desire.”
    Agreed-but sadly those who don’t have the income abandon all hope of entering the MO world.

  133. mycroft says:

    “Joseph Kaplan on April 12, 2012 at 11:49 am
    Mycroft, Maybe I’m missing something here, so please correct me if I am. I understood your original statement (to which I took exception) to mean that the cost of being Orthodox is keeping many lower income people out of that community. But your post on statistics says, AIUI (and perhaps I’m not understanding it correctly), that there are lots of lower income Orthodox — both in comparison to Conservative and Reform and in absolute terms as well. So although it’s tough for them (no one disputes that), don’t your ”

    I usually blog about the MO community-I know next to nothing about the chareidi community-my comments about economics in general refer to a MO community-for other reasonsthe vast majority of those brought up MO will not be found in chareidi communities.

  134. mycroft says:

    Steve Brizel on April 12, 2012 at 11:45 am
    Mycroft wrote”

    ““But recognize that sending ones child to a school of a different hashkafa is telling your students that you don’t believe in the hashkafa of what/where you are teaching”

    We disagree. Talk to any of the RY-when it comes to the chinuch of their childen, they face the same choices as any other parent, with hashkafic concerns being only one of many factors”
    They face many factors but at least one factor should be sending a child to a school whose hashkafa your employer disagrees with indicates to students at least that you disagree with what the school is trying to teach.

  135. mycroft says:

    “This is an often voiced comment. However, the same is based on an extremely static and limited view of what constitutes a Torah education. Viewing ones’ parents as role models for their generation is wonderful-but to consider them as such for our generation”
    I don’t claim that my parents would agree with everything that I do, write or blog about etc but I am like many who probably consider their parents to have been a model for this generation. Mesorah-sheal avicha veyagedcha etc.

  136. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft and Joel Rich-viewing Hashkafa as the sole reason where to send a child for the child’s education is IMO a highly questionnable proposition and borders on a overly simplistic and generalized view of the many factors that go into the selection of a school for a child. Even if child X is the child of a Gaon Olam, child X is an individual who has his or her individual world and needs such as friends, proper academic and religious atmosphere, even if the same differ from their parents, which can even differ from child to child within the same family.

    Again, it bears reiterating “be true to your school” is a great Beach Boys song, but hardly a universal principal in education, let alone the Tafkid HaKadosh of Chinuch HaBanim uBanos. FWIW, obviously, for whatever reasons, RYBS send none of his children to YU’s undergraduate schools. In fact, none of RYBS’s grandchildren who are prominent Talmidei Chachamim in the US and Israel went to YU. Two went to RIETS only.Imposing such a hashkafic litmus test is an example of employing a PC set of blinders where the same fails to aid the subject of the discussion.

  137. STEVE:

    “when it comes to the chinuch of their childen, they face the same choices as any other parent, with hashkafic concerns being only one of many factors”

    again, there are good reasons not to send a child to the school where one works. but it is telling when the majority (or even all) of a school’s rebbeim (and menahel) send to another school.

  138. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “I don’t claim that my parents would agree with everything that I do, write or blog about etc but I am like many who probably consider their parents to have been a model for this generation. Mesorah-sheal avicha veyagedcha etc”

    Isn’t that a rather narrow view which excludes many other equally valid perspectives within the Mesorah of Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim?

  139. Steve Brizel says:

    Abba wrote:

    “again, there are good reasons not to send a child to the school where one works. but it is telling when the majority (or even all) of a school’s rebbeim (and menahel) send to another school”

    Not in the least. Children should never be seen as the hashkafic cannon fodder of their parents’ employers.

  140. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “I usually blog about the MO community-I know next to nothing about the chareidi community-my comments about economics in general refer to a MO community-for other reasonsthe vast majority of those brought up MO will not be found in chareidi communities”

    Let’s be realistic here, as opposed to resorting to an “ignorance is bliss” styled discussion. If one reads the Charedi media between the lines, the economic issues are on full display. One can also find in the Charedi world, especially in Lakewood, many talmidim whose parents are YU grads and RIETS Musmachim, as well as many influential lay leaders who also are YU grads and RIETS Musmachim.

  141. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Abba: My contrast of Touro and Revel was in response to a question by Steve Brizel.

  142. joel rich says:

    Not in the least. Children should never be seen as the hashkafic cannon fodder of their parents’ employers.
    =================
    agreed – but there is statistical significance which can be drawn from the behaviors of large groups. and hashkafa is often an important point in a decision (e.g. I’ve often send the kids to a more RW place and “supplement” the secular education – but that’s a whole nother topic)
    ML

  143. STEVE:

    “Children should never be seen as the hashkafic cannon fodder of their parents’ employers.”

    you are missing the point. of course it is the parents’ decision where to send them. but that decision is very often a sign that the hashkafa of the teacher is not that of the school. what don’t you understand?

  144. Steve Brizel says:

    See RHS’s comments on parents shepping nachas from children who are more knowledgeable than their parents,http://www.torahweb.org/torah/2005/parsha/rsch_matos.html
    Even in the American yeshivishe world, it is hardly uncommon for parents where a father attended Ner Yisrael to send a son to Philly for the high school years, and for a parent to view their son and daughter as having a far greater Torah education than their own.

    Once again-viewing hashkafa as a determinative element is yet another example of allowing hashkafa to supplant,rather than supplement one’s striving towards being an Eved HaShem in Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim. Joel-your “eg” comment is a classic example of what many YU alumni have done-a subject that deserves its own study and which is hardly confined to RIETS RY.

  145. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Gil and Steve B: I am sorry that Haredim in Israel, as opposed to their bretheren in the US, find it difficult to visit the Zoo with together with the general public. But again, had some slot of time say at the beginning of the day or end of the day been reserved for them, and had it been widely advertised beforehand, then maybe…. But, as it is, it becomes just one more example of what is perceived of as Haredi special treament and entitlement.

  146. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “I usually blog about the MO community-I know next to nothing about the chareidi community-my comments about economics in general refer to a MO community-for other reasonsthe vast majority of those brought up MO will not be found in chareidi communities.”

    I still don’t understand. You’re the one who brought up Dr. Waxman’s statistics in support of your statement. So I assume his numbers have some relevance to the MO community. If they do, then the way I read them they don’t support your statement. If they don’t, they’re irrelevant to the discussion and certainly don’t support your statement. Maybe I’m missing something, but your response hasn’t shown me what, if anything, I’m missing.

  147. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “One should never how American Chasidim and Litvishe Yidden spend their spare time in comparison to their brethren in Israel. You are comparing two vastly different worlds in hashkafa.”

    WE’RE not the ones who brought up what American Hareidim do; YOU’RE the one who brought them into this discussion, supposedly in support of your support of Gil’s comment. I agree they’re irrelevant; so why did you bring them up in the first place?

  148. mycroft says:

    “Steve Brizel on April 12, 2012 at 12:03 pm
    Mycroft wrote:

    “I don’t claim that my parents would agree with everything that I do, write or blog about etc but I am like many who probably consider their parents to have been a model for this generation. Mesorah-sheal avicha veyagedcha etc”

    Isn’t that a rather narrow view which excludes many other equally valid perspectives within the Mesorah of Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim?”

    We all follow various models-some follow RHS, some follow RMT, some follow RAW-I suspect you don’t treat them as equally valid perspectives on mesorah ofTorah etc. You have your derech we all have our own derech which is based on many influences, parents, Rabeeim, Rabbis etc.

  149. Joseph Kaplan says:

    As for YU RY and their children. No one disputes their right, as a parent, to decide on what education is best for their children. No one disputes that their employer should have no say in that education. And no one disputes that, like most of us, a number of factors, including but not limited to haskafa, go into the choice of a school for ones children. But when that choice, over and over again, for many RY in many different circumstances, are schools that are not in agreement with YU’s haskafa, it tells you something about the RYs attitude towards YU’s hashkafa.

    I’d add that this isn’t something new; most of the RY in my days were also not supportive of YU’s haskafa. The hope was, however, that as more younger rabbeim joined the staff, especially YC graduates and RIETS musmachim, that would change. Unfortunately, it hasn’t, at least as much as some of us would have liked.

    As for the Rav; while he may not have sent his children to YU institutions for college, looking at the schools they went to and knowing of the learning that the continued to do, the decisions of the Rav and his wife certainly fell within a Torah U’maddah haskafa.

  150. R’ Joel:

    interesting. how come all the advocates of mandatory reporting for non-public schools didn’t know about this law?

  151. mycroft says:

    “Joseph Kaplan on April 12, 2012 at 12:30 pm
    “I usually blog about the MO community-I know next to nothing about the chareidi community-my comments about economics in general refer to a MO community-for other reasonsthe vast majority of those brought up MO will not be found in chareidi communities.”

    I still don’t understand. You’re the one who brought up Dr. Waxman’s statistics in support of your statement. So I assume his numbers have some relevance to the MO community. If they do, then the way I read them they don’t support your statement. If they don’t, they’re irrelevant to the discussion and certainly don’t support your statement. Maybe I’m missing something, but your response hasn’t shown me what, if anything, I’m missing.”

    I don’t believe thetext of Flipping Out a Yashar Book is available online but if you have it read pages 183-196-Dr Waxman in a by the way manner at times refers to the economic costs of Orthodoxy. I recall for awhile there was a blog from Bergen County which basically claimed that with less than 200k a family can’t afford tuition-how do you expect a family with even 60K to afford an MO day school? BTW how many students are there in the MO day schools that you are active in from families ofless than 50K income?

  152. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    donating eggs — yoma 18 cause siblings may marry.

    hotel discrimination — even in us laws (esp under us law) religious purpose does trump over the discrimination. but bad pr.

    while in the us, at least, i can cut a deal with the central park conservancy to rent out the zoo, and then discriminate as a private “tenant”. there was such an issue a few years ago with a black muslim rental of a state owned theater.

    YU RY’s childrens schools — i dont know if yu still has free / discounted tuition for faculty (cooperative type agreement with other MO high schools) (and similar cooperative arrangement for colleges, including columbia i specifically know / knew about.)

    is it proper to publicize (or just mention in passing) what schools they went to?

    also note other factors — a friend of mine sends one child to chofetz chaim queens, the other to mta. commitments to in laws. commitment to one’s (or one’s spouse’s) alma mater. a particular rebbe. transportation issues.

  153. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    notice the author of the donating eggs article.

  154. mycroft says:

    “As for the Rav; while he may not have sent his children to YU institutions for college, looking at the schools they went to and knowing of the learning that the continued to do, the decisions of the Rav and his wife certainly fell within ”

    Not only did the Ravs children go to college but so did all of his siblings.

  155. mycroft says:

    “But when that choice, over and over again, for many RY in many different circumstances, are schools that are not in agreement with YU’s haskafa, it tells you something about the RYs attitude towards YU’s hashkafa.

    I’d add that this isn’t something new; most of the RY in my days were also not supportive of YU’s haskafa.”

    I agree with Joseph Kaplan and one could generalize and substitute RY with Rebbe/teacher and YU with MO school

  156. Hirhurim says:

    Joseph Kaplan: But when that choice, over and over again, for many RY in many different circumstances, are schools that are not in agreement with YU’s haskafa, it tells you something about the RYs attitude towards YU’s hashkafa.

    I question the accuracy of the statement, although it’s difficult to do so without discussing specific people. The senior roshei yeshiva I know sent most of their children to YU/Stern.

  157. Abba's Rantings says:

    MYCROFT:

    i missed the exchange above, but where does that 50k figure come from? does that include retirees, very young singles, the right wing? what happens to the figure when you remove these 3 groups?

  158. what are you talking about? says:

    R’ Gil-
    The only current rosh yeshiva who has sent every one of his children to YU/Stern is Rav Rosensweig. Rav Goldvichts kids went to YU as well but all left immediately after graduating top go learn in Eretz yisroel. That’s it. [yes i notice you wrote most but i dont think that is true either.]

  159. Hirhurim says:

    Emphasis on “most” in my comment above. You have to allow for different children. And even if it’s less than most, sending a bunch of children to YU is good enough for our purposes.

    There were a bunch of Schachters, Willigs and Twerskys who went/are going through the YU system. The fact that Yosef Schachter learned in Ner Yisrael should not somehow negate the fact that his brothers and sisters went to YU.

  160. YJ says:

    Gebrokts article – 1,000,000 reasons why there is no real need to keep it. Conclusion- Hey, keeping this great minhag is a way to connect to our grandparents and ancestors! Wow!

    Or….we could just stop keeping this silly minhag. There are literally thousands of chumrot that would be better to keep. I ate by someone who said they would throw out a plate if matzah with avacado was placed on it… but then had their help use the washing machine on shabbos/yom tov. Insane/preposterous/ridiculous and not holy, just ignorant.

  161. Joseph Kaplan says:

    ” I recall for awhile there was a blog from Bergen County which basically claimed that with less than 200k a family can’t afford tuition-how do you expect a family with even 60K to afford an MO day school? BTW how many students are there in the MO day schools that you are active in from families ofless than 50K income?”

    You’re switching topics. We all agree that day schools/yeshivot are very expensive and place financial burdens on parents. But they give out significant financial aid. So the question is: are you correct that families whose income is low drop out of Orthodoxy because they can’t afford it as you claim or do they struggle and get along through struggling and support from the community (like scholarships)? I believe Dr. Waxman’s figures, that you posted about, supports the latter. You’ve danced around that issue but haven’t explained how they don’t but really support your claim. If you want to claim that Orthodoxy is too expensive and should make changes to become less expensive, well, I would probably agree in principle though disagree on some of the specifics. But if you want to continue to smear the Orthodox community by claiming that they don’t care about those who are low down on the economic scale and therefore those families drop out of Orthodoxy because of that lack of concern, I suggest that you stop it until you can support it.

  162. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    Joseph: I wouldn’t hold my breath.

  163. YU Talmid says:

    There’s also the question of YU RY whose sons (likely of their own decision but nevertheless) get a BTL from NIRC or the Mir and then come to YU for semicha and/or Kollel Elyon. On the one hand, YU clearly isn’t so traif that they can’t learn there but at the same time, the college seems to be problematic.
    All in all, it seems to me that the alignment of the RY and YU’s hashkafa is an age old issue that will never go away. I think the bigger problem (and this smacks of the classical critiques of both R Hirsch’s TIDE as well as TuM) is that there are very few potential RY being developed within the system who do feel comfortable within the broader YU. Even those who have the Torah knowledge to be on that level, even with serious academic pursuits, seem to be scared away, if not pushed away, from the “RY track”. Quite honestly, I wonder if that hurts YU in recruiting those who are accepted to the Columbia, Penn, NYU type places, might have strongly considered coming to YU but feel that the beis medrash environment, both the actual RY and the older semicha and even serious college guys, will look askance at their hashkafot and actions.

  164. Steve Brizel says:

    Joseph Kaplan wrote:

    “WE’RE not the ones who brought up what American Hareidim do; YOU’RE the one who brought them into this discussion, supposedly in support of your support of Gil’s comment. I agree they’re irrelevant; so why did you bring them up in the first place”

    I only mentioned American Charedim as a contrast to Israeli Charedim whose lives are far more insular than their American brethren and , in contrast, for the most part, are separated by a four letter word-WORK.

  165. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “We all follow various models-some follow RHS, some follow RMT, some follow RAW-I suspect you don’t treat them as equally valid perspectives on mesorah ofTorah etc. You have your derech we all have our own derech which is based on many influences, parents, Rabeeim, Rabbis etc”

    What does that have to do with school is the right choice for any child in any family?

  166. Steve Brizel says:

    what are you talking about wrote:

    “The only current rosh yeshiva who has sent every one of his children to YU/Stern is Rav Rosensweig”

    What about for elementary and high school? Did all of R Rosensweig’s kids go to MO schools?

  167. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “As for the Rav; while he may not have sent his children to YU institutions for college, looking at the schools they went to and knowing of the learning that the continued to do, the decisions of the Rav and his wife certainly fell within ”

    Not only did the Ravs children go to college but so did all of his siblings”

    The issue was whether RY sent their children to YU, as opposed to some other yeshiva or place of higher learning.

  168. mycroft says:

    “Abba’s Rantings on April 12, 2012 at 1:45 pm
    MYCROFT:

    i missed the exchange above, but where does that 50k figure come from? does that include retirees, very young singles, the right wing? what happens to the figure when you remove these 3 groups?”

    are you referring to this comment: “I don’t believe thetext of Flipping Out a Yashar Book is available online but if you have it read pages 183-196-Dr Waxman in a by the way manner at times refers to the economic costs of Orthodoxy. I recall for awhile there was a blog from Bergen County which basically claimed that with less than 200k a family can’t afford tuition-how do you expect a family with even 60K to afford an MO day school? BTW how many students are there in the MO day schools that you are active in from families ofless than 50K income?”
    Those figures aren’t specifically quoted they are arguments

    The only figures that I quoted are these from a previous post:

    “Americans’ wages are falling, perhaps a reason why pessimism about their personal finances is now the lowest it’s been in a decade.

    The annual median wage fell in 2010 for the second year in a row to $26,364, a 1.2 percent drop from 2009, and the lowest level since 1999, according to David Cay Johnston at Reuters.”

    for average wages higher than median incomes “The wage data are based on wages subject to Federal income taxes and contributions to deferred compensation plans.

    The average amounts of wages calculated directly from our data were $39,036.67 and $39,959.30 for 2009 and 2010, respectively. “from http://www.ssa.gov/oact/COLA/AWI.html

    from http://www.jcpa.org/cjc/cjc-waxman-f05.htm
    Chaim
    waxman writes in part-he is a retired Prof and musmach-”The “Cost of Jewish Living” and its Impact
    This author has argued that the 1990 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS) data indicate that Orthodox families have lower annual incomes than Conservative and Reform families, and that the “cost of Jewish living,” while affecting all the denominations, is higher for the Orthodox:

    There is a gap of more than $10,000 between the mean family incomes of Orthodox and Conservative, and a similar gap between the mean family incomes of Conservative and Reform baby boomers. Almost two-thirds of the Orthodox baby boomers reported combined annual family incomes of less than $45,000, whereas only half of the Conservatives and 42.5 percent of the Reform did…. Since Orthodox have more children than Conservative and Reform do, this means that the economic constraints are even greater than these data indicate. The lower income of the Orthodox, combined with their larger families, means they have considerably less disposable income than others. In addition, their ideological commitments compel them to join synagogues at a higher rate than others, . . . and to send their children to private day schools, as well as to contribute to a variety of other Jewish communal institutions. There is, thus, ample evidence that the Orthodox are disproportionally affected by what has been called, “the high cost of Jewish living.”23

    The lower income of the Orthodox continued to be evident in the 2001 NJPS. For example, of those identifying as Orthodox, 80 percent had incomes of less than $100,000, compared to 77 percent for Conservative and 73 percent for Reform. Five percent of those who identified as Conservative had incomes of $300,000 or more, compared to 3 percent for Reform and only 1 percent for Orthodox. It must be taken into account, however, that the Orthodox have larger families. In other words, although most American Orthodox Jews are middle-class, the community’s significantly higher cost of Jewish living persists…Bubis assumes that the cost is not a barrier for the Orthodox community because their Jewishness is the most important aspect of their identity. However, he does not consider that cost is a factor for many Orthodox Jews as well and may play a role in the fact that Orthodoxy has not grown as rapidly as one might have expected. It may also play a role in the haredization of American Orthodoxy because the haredi community is more tightly knit and has much greater provision for hesed, “good works” of all kinds, for those who do not have the means”Note Waxman refers to the Chareidi community hesed not to the MO community Chesed for its less fortunate.

  169. mycroft says:

    “Mycroft wrote:

    “As for the Rav; while he may not have sent his children to YU institutions for college, looking at the schools they went to and knowing of the learning that the continued to do, the decisions of the Rav and his wife certainly fell within ”

    Not only did the Ravs children go to college but so did all of his siblings”

    The issue was whether RY sent their children to YU, as opposed to some other yeshiva or place of higher learning”

    Disagree the issue is what hashkafa the parents send their kids for education-BTW Ner Israel is IMO very close in Hashkafa to RIETS.

  170. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote :

    “We all follow various models-some follow RHS, some follow RMT, some follow RAW-I suspect you don’t treat them as equally valid perspectives on mesorah ofTorah etc”

    Who says that hashkafa per se is the sole factor as to where to send a child, as opposed to friends,proper academic and religious atmosphere, even if the same differ from their parents, which can even differ from child to child within the same family etc? Some kids thrive in schools which are vastly different than the hashkafa of their parents. I know of many parents who are YU, SCW and RIETS parents whose kids went to more RW schools and thrived therein, regardless of the parents’ hashkafic differences with the school. I would argue that viewing hashkafa of a school as being of paramount consideration for a parent,as opposed to a student’s genuine needs such as friends, and a proper religious and academic atmosphere can be ruinous to a child’s development.

  171. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “Disagree the issue is what hashkafa the parents send their kids for education-BTW Ner Israel is IMO very close in Hashkafa to RIETS”

    Ask any Ner Yisrael talmid whether he can take the same range of courses at any school in Baltimore or elsewhere as the average RIETS talmid.

  172. mycroft says:

    “i missed the exchange above, but where does that 50k figure come from? does that include retirees, very young singles, the right wing? what happens to the figure when you remove these 3 groups?””

    I can’t give specific figures but in general income increases by age until retirement see from
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

    “The highest median income per member of household was among those between the ages of 54 and 64 with $30,544 [The reason this figure is lower than the next group is because Pensions and Social Security add to income while a portion of older individuals also have work-related income.]). The group with the second highest median household income, were households headed by persons between the ages 35 and 44 with a median income of $56,785, followed by those in the age group between 55 and 64 with $50,400. Not surprisingly the lowest income group was composed of those households headed by individuals younger than 24, followed by those headed by persons over the age of 75. Overall, households headed by persons above the age of seventy-five had a median household income of $20,467 with the median household income per member of household being $18,645. These figures support the general assumption that median household income as well as the median income per member of household peaked among those households headed by middle aged persons, increasing with the age of the householder and the size of the household until the householder reaches the age of 64. “

  173. Steve Brizel says:

    I would have hestitated to write the following, but R Gil mentioned the same:

    “There were a bunch of Schachters, Willigs and Twerskys who went/are going through the YU system. The fact that Yosef Schachter learned in Ner Yisrael should not somehow negate the fact that his brothers and sisters went to YU.”

    I think that it is a classical example of a double standard for many YU alumni many of whose own kids choose the Ivies or other secular milieu to insist that RY in RIETS don’t have the right to consider what is in the best interests of their children, whether in YU, RIERS, SCW or elsewhere. The use of Hashkafa as some sort of litmus test strikes me IMO as selfish and poor parenting in the guise of using one’s children as Karbanos for one’s hashkafic needs, and possibly causing harm to a child whose social needs, religious and academic growth are ignored so that his or her parents can claim that their children are following in their hashkafa.

  174. Steve Brizel says:

    YU Talmid wrote:

    “On the one hand, YU clearly isn’t so traif that they can’t learn there but at the same time, the college seems to be problematic.”

    Yu Talmid- Let me express it this way- Your comment is one of the oldest Charedi complaints about RIETS and YU-namely, the RY are great Talmidei Chachamim and the best RIETS guys are wonderful Bnei Torah, but whatever is permitted as part of YC, they would never allow their children to be exposed to in their lives.

  175. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “But recognize that sending ones child to a school of a different hashkafa is telling your students that you don’t believe in the hashkafa of what/where you are teaching.”

    I disagree. Such a choice merely implies and sends a signal that a particular school, even if it not of your hashkafic leanings, is a better social, religious and academic environment for your child. Why sacrifice your child’s development on your hashkafic altar?

  176. IH says:

    Steve — and this is precisely why complaints about YCT from the YU crowd are so amusing.

  177. mycroft says:

    “Ask any Ner Yisrael talmid whether he can take the same range of courses at any school in Baltimore or elsewhere as the average RIETS talmid.”

    Don’t understand comment- NI students have gone on to many different professions.
    “I would argue that viewing hashkafa of a school as being of paramount consideration for a parent,as opposed to a student’s genuine needs such as friends, and a proper religious and academic atmosphere can be ruinous to a child’s development”
    Hashkafa is essential to proper religious development.

  178. IH says:

    I haven’t posted this favorite for some time:

    “In 1932, the following anonymous placard was distributed in Orthodox synagogues throughout the east coast: ‘We Jews of New York discovered that in the Yeshiva Rabbi Isaac Elchanan … there is a nest of atheism and Apikursus (denial of God). Therefore we do warn and announce, that you should not send your children or the children of your acquaintances into this Yeshiva until you will find out what is going on in the Yeshiva, who is responsible for the terrible situation, and how it is to be remedied.’ [...] Despite the presence of prominent scholars in RIETS, men whose abilities were acknowledged by all who moved within the orbit of talmudic learning, opposition to Yeshiva’s philosophy was constant. Sometimes it was rancorous. When the famed head of the yeshiva in Baranowicz, Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman, visited the United States, he praised the more traditional institution, Mesivta Torah Vodaath, and condemned Yeshiva College. He refused, despite personal pleas by Dr. Revel, to set foot in the building. Rabbi Wasserman’s view was that although philosophy had been studied in the past by gedolim(giants in scholarship) such as the Vilna Gaon, in these times there were no individuals of sufficient stature to study such subjects without risking their faith.” From Helmreich’s “The World of the Yeshiva: an Intimate Portrait of Orthodox Jewry” (http://tinyurl.com/237s8p6).

  179. mycroft says:

    “But they give out significant financial aid. So the question is: are you correct that families whose income is low drop out of Orthodoxy because they can’t afford it as you claim or do they struggle and get along through struggling and support from the community (like scholarships)? ”

    Do you have data to support that they give out “significant” aid-percentage and actual dollars per student data.

  180. Steve Brizel says:

    Abba wrote:

    “you are missing the point. of course it is the parents’ decision where to send them. but that decision is very often a sign that the hashkafa of the teacher is not that of the school. what don’t you understand?”

    We disagree. Parents of course pay the freight known as tuition. Yet, where they send their kids, IMO, should involve what is in the child’s best social, religious and academic interests, not merely whether you agree with the hashkafa of the school. Hashkafa of the school and faculty are one of many factors, but hardly the only factor that should go into such a decision. Insisting upon the same is inflicting your dreams as a parent onto the realities facing your child, which may be quite different.

    As far as faculty is concerned, when MO champions Chinuch as a working profession for its best and brightest, then and only then will MO schools be staffed by YC, RIETS, SCW graduates, as opposed to charedi yeshiva and seminary educated rebbes and moras.

  181. Steve Brizel says:

    IH-your comment can be found in the ArtScroll hagiography of REW. Ain Chadash Tachas HaShemesh in that reagrd. I think that it can be safely said that in RIETS, that REW’s views on Zionism and secular studies, as well as Daas Torah, are not accorded the same respect as his seforim on various Maesctos.

  182. mycroft says:

    ” But if you want to continue to smear the Orthodox community by claiming that they don’t care about those who are low down on the economic scale and therefore those families drop out of Orthodoxy because of that lack of concern”

    More often families don’t even get formed Orthodox-what is the shidduch/setup market for a below median income non Talmid chacham Orthodox single wo family wealth?

  183. Steve Brizel says:

    IH-I don’t see YCT as relevant to a discussion as to why many YU alumni send their children to yeshivos starting in elementary school, which are not in the YU orbit. That fact would make a great sociological study.

  184. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “Hashkafa is essential to proper religious development”

    More so than a child’s social needs and a proper religious and acaemic environment?That is an example of sacrificing a child’s genuine needs to satisfy a parent’s hashkafic legitimacy. or lack thereof.

  185. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “Ask any Ner Yisrael talmid whether he can take the same range of courses at any school in Baltimore or elsewhere as the average RIETS talmid.”

    Don’t understand comment- NI students have gone on to many different professions

    Your comment is based on your observations of NI students and their professions.My question was simple-can a NIRC student take any course in any college in Baltimore area without his RY’s approval? Yes or No? In David Landau’s book about the Charedim, the author quoted Gary Rosenmblatt, then the editor of the Baltimore Jewish Times, who stated that NIRC retained a very tight control over which courses NI talmidim could take.

  186. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “Hashkafa is essential to proper religious development”

    IOW, saying Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, or conversely not saying Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, is as essential as becoming textually literate, having friends and being in an an appropriate religious and academic atmosphere? That IMO, is a classical case of stressing a parent’s hashkafic needs over the real needs of a child.

  187. mycroft says:

    “As far as faculty is concerned, when MO champions Chinuch as a working profession for its best and brightest, then and only then will MO schools be staffed by YC, RIETS, SCW graduates, as opposed to charedi yeshiva and seminary educated rebbes and moras.”

    Chimuch needs personality and dedication-successful mechancim ned have very little correlation with being world class talmeidei chachamim.

  188. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “Chimuch needs personality and dedication-successful mechancim ned have very little correlation with being world class talmeidei chachamim”

    IOW, the average Mchanech and Mchaneches should be dedicated and have the altruistic personality that their students’ parents are missing, but lack the ability , desire and willpower to teach and be recognized for them. IIRC, R Riskin once quoted R M Besdin ZL that when you pay teachers peanuts, the results are monkeys, as opposed to educated students.

  189. mycroft says:

    “Hashkafa is essential to proper religious development”

    “IOW, saying Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, or conversely not saying Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut, is as essential as becoming textually literate, having friends and being in an an appropriate religious and academic atmosphere? That IMO, is a classical case of stressing a parent’s hashkafic needs over the real needs of a child.”

    Disagree-BTW I am mildly opposed to saying Hallel in chutz laaretz on Yom Haatzmaut. Areas can celebrate their victory and yeshuya with Hallel but it can’t become aKlal Israel duty wo proper promulgation. That does not take away from the victory which has lasted longer than Channukah .
    I doubt you would end a child to a community day school, a pluralistic day school in the NY area no matter how appropriate an education it would be.

  190. Steve Brizel says:

    Joseph Kaplan wrote:

    “As for YU RY and their children. No one disputes their right, as a parent, to decide on what education is best for their children. No one disputes that their employer should have no say in that education. And no one disputes that, like most of us, a number of factors, including but not limited to haskafa, go into the choice of a school for ones children. But when that choice, over and over again, for many RY in many different circumstances, are schools that are not in agreement with YU’s haskafa, it tells you something about the RYs attitude towards YU’s hashkafa.

    I’d add that this isn’t something new; most of the RY in my days were also not supportive of YU’s haskafa. The hope was, however, that as more younger rabbeim joined the staff, especially YC graduates and RIETS musmachim, that would change. Unfortunately, it hasn’t, at least as much as some of us would have liked.

    As for the Rav; while he may not have sent his children to YU institutions for college, looking at the schools they went to and knowing of the learning that the continued to do, the decisions of the Rav and his wife certainly fell within a Torah U’maddah haskafa.

    let me offer the following response:

    1)I don’t think that RY should be judged differently solely on circumstantial evidence as to where their children go to yeshiva than any other parent in terms of where they send their children for their education. I don’t think that the interfamilial dynamics of any family, let alone great Talmidei Chachamim, should be second guessed to insist on hashkafic conformity.

    2) Which hashkafa of YU are you referring to-synthesis, TuM , Centrist Orthodoxy, MO,or enabling and enobling, or having a RIETS musmach in every MO shul in North America? The constant debate and discussion, both in learned journals sponsored by YU as well as in students’ publications, are indicative of the fact or would certainly lead many within and outside of YU that hashkafa at YU, outside of the Beis Medrash, has always been in a state of flux, rebranding, and in the repair shop of articles, think tanks and symposia, for intellectual maintenance and tweaking more as a sales pitch and ratonalization for certain aspects of MO behavior and theology than as a serious hashkafic endeavor. AFAIK, when the RY were appointed, it was because of their Lomdus and Tzidkus, and teaching abiities-not because they were advocates of what purported to be YU’s hashkafa as of the date of their appointments,but rather as Talmidei Chachamim who could both teach and relate as role models to their talmidim who were navigating their way thru the challenges posed by a dual curriculum. IMO, I don’t think, and I would pray that the job description of a RY is to be a shill or cheerleader for the sales pitch au courant at YU. For a spirited defense of the RY and RIETS , see RAL’s appraisal of the Beis Medrash in contrast to when he was a talmid, as well as RAL’s response to RYG in the YUJudaica volume.

    3) YU’s Hashkafa has always been in flux-whether it is called synthesis, TuM or enabling and enabling.One of the many positives of RIETS is the wide variety of very accessible RY , their different Darchei HaLimud and their Hashkafic views, on a wide and vast number of issues, which attract their talmidim in dealing with the issues in the lives of their talmidim, both in and out of the shiur and Beis Medrash.

    See also RYBS’s own comments in R Rakkafet’s book re synthesis and his views on the splitting off of RIETS. Would you call allowing a son to get an Ivy league degree while learning in Ponevezh, where and which DR CS compared his childhood atmosphere on the Yamim Noraim in his famous article about mimetic tradition, a decision informed by TuM considerations?

    One of my closest friends who was a President of SOY, mentioned to me, that RYBS told him when he met with RYBS, that his dream was that his talmidim would be able to navigate their ways both througth any passage in the Chidushei R Chaim as well and have be a credit to Klal Yisrael in their careers.

  191. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “BTW I am mildly opposed to saying Hallel in chutz laaretz on Yom Haatzmaut. Areas can celebrate their victory and yeshuya with Hallel but it can’t become aKlal Israel duty wo proper promulgation. That does not take away from the victory which has lasted longer than Channukah .
    I doubt you would end a child to a community day school, a pluralistic day school in the NY area no matter how appropriate an education it would be.”

    First of all, Rambam states in Hilcos Chanukah that the victory of the Chashmonaim restored Jewish sovereignty for 200 years. How is that less than the time period since 1948? I am surprised, based on our many conversations here and elsewhere at your comment re our family’s choice of schools for each of our children based on their social, academic and religious needs.

  192. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “Do you have data to support that they give out “significant” aid-percentage and actual dollars per student data.”

    Nope; based on conversations with members of the scholarship committee and boards of several local schools.

    “More often families don’t even get formed Orthodox-what is the shidduch/setup market for a below median income non Talmid chacham Orthodox single wo family wealth?”

    If it weren’t sad it would be funny how many ways you go to refuse to respond to my comment about the data that YOU presented and how it contradicts your position. I thought that perhaps I misunderstood something and therefore asked a few times for clarification. Your refusal to do so tells me clearly that I did not misunderstand and that you simply like to bash the Orthodox community on this issue with no supporting evidence.

  193. mycroft says:

    “First of all, Rambam states in Hilcos Chanukah that the victory of the Chashmonaim restored Jewish sovereignty for 200 years. How is that less than the time period since 1948? ”
    Maccabean revolt roughly 165 BCE
    Judah becomes a Roman province 63 BCE and never leaves.
    The Maccabbees lost wars even during this 100 year period-the territory was very small at most.

    I apologize to Steve for stating anything that implies anything about personal choices that one makes. I had no intent of referringto anything personal while I wrote the statement but obviously I was wrong. I intended to be hypothetical in my argument and obviously failed by using “you”.
    One should never attack another blogger for his personal actions-for my statement I apologize and wish I had never written the statement.

  194. mycroft says:

    “Joseph Kaplan on April 12, 2012 at 6:34 pm
    “Do you have data to support that they give out “significant” aid-percentage and actual dollars per student data.”

    Nope; based on conversations with members of the scholarship committee and boards of several local schools.

    “More often families don’t even get formed Orthodox-what is the shidduch/setup market for a below median income non Talmid chacham Orthodox single wo family wealth?”

    If it weren’t sad it would be funny how many ways you go to refuse to respond to my comment about the data that YOU presented and how it contradicts your position. I thought that perhaps I misunderstood something and therefore asked a few times for clarification. Your refusal to do so tells me clearly that I did not misunderstand and that you simply like to bash the Orthodox community on this issue with no supporting evidence”

    I have had conversations with people over the decades about this subject-people who have goneto public schools because of not being able to afford tuition and Rabbis who have told methat this goes on. I have had an Exec Dir of a MO school tell me that 91% of their total theoretical bills oftuition gets paid by the parents-not much scholarship money there obviously. I have argued by data that the average persons income can’t afford such a lifestyle including day school. One can notice that we are not expanding in numbers inthe past few decades-something is happening. Close to Yom Tovand must wish all a goodYT and Shabbos.-

  195. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “I have had an Exec Dir of a MO school tell me that 91% of their total theoretical bills oftuition gets paid by the parents-not much scholarship money there obviously.”

    Non sequitor. The issue is how many children, whose parents truly cannot afford tuition, get turned away. This, of course, doesn’t speak to that issue. You claim to have some anecdotal evidence about it. But the statistics you gave us show that there are many who identify as Orthodox who are on the lower end of the economic ladder. But you have ignored, and continue to ignore, the statistics you yourself gave us. Hmmmmmm.

    Bottom line: Your charge — in my words: the Orthodox community doesn’t care about those on the lower end of the economic ladder — is a serious one. Evidence based on “I’ve spoken to some people about this” doesn’t cut it. I admit my evidence isn’t much better, but I’m not throwing around accusations.

  196. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    “Exec Dir of a MO schoo”

    problem with that quote — some (esp MO) schools give (almost or nominal) no scholarships, and some give plenty. it depends on the school (and its defintion of its mission = its ability / willingness to fundraise.)

    otherwise, i’m staying out of this particular debate.

  197. mycroft says:

    “Joseph Kaplan on April 14, 2012 at 9:13 pm
    “I have had an Exec Dir of a MO school tell me that 91% of their total theoretical bills oftuition gets paid by the parents-not much scholarship money there obviously.”

    Non sequitor. The issue is how many children, whose parents truly cannot afford tuition, get turned away.”
    And how many parents knowing they will not be able to afford the tuition don’t even contact the schools and perhaps include the amount of children who are not being conceived due to the economic reality of day school tuitions.

    “This, of course, doesn’t speak to that issue. You claim to have some anecdotal evidence about it.”
    Personal knowledge and trusting people who were/are knowledgeable about the issue.

    ” But the statistics you gave us show that there are many who identify as Orthodox who are on the lower end of the economic ladder.”
    Agreed-bur how many have kids in MO schools or pseudo chareidi schools that deal basically with students from wealthy neighborhoods come from non upper middle class family backgrounds.

    “But you have ignored, and continue to ignore, the statistics you yourself gave us. Hmmmmmm. ”
    I don’t understand the comment

    “Bottom line: Your charge — in my words: the Orthodox community doesn’t care about those on the lower end of the economic ladder — is a serious one.”
    Look and see around and how many MO students come from families that are from the bottom 50% of incomes-the Chareidi world may be different.

    ” Evidence based on “I’ve spoken to some people about this” doesn’t cut it. I admit my evidence isn’t much better, but I’m not throwing around accusations”
    I have stated that I know of many cases and BTW it is not the children went to public school which is of an affluent safe neighborhood.

  198. IH says:

    I don’t know whether to laugh (at the ignorance of the consumer) or cry (at the disrespect of the retailer): http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4216160,00.html

    “Castro T-shirts include print of Christian prayer, much to embarrassment of one customer who unknowingly purchased shirt and wore it to synagogue”

  199. Hirhurim says:

    As the son of a Juban refugee, I’m doubly offended.

  200. IH says:

    David Denby writes another positive review of Footnote in the current (4/16) New Yorker (with some good observations). There is also a fascinating A Reporter at Large piece about the reporter’s Hajj which made me wonder about whether it informs a hypothetical vision of what the Shalosh Regalim would be like were they to be re-instituted in modern times. Both articles ate paywalled online.

  201. Nachum says:

    My wife finds the meeting scene in Footnote to be the best- it’s so typical. (“Yes, we called this meeting just for you, but can you get a chair from across the hall?”)

    I once read an essay (or something) showing how every line in The Lord’s Prayer is taken from Tanakh. Not all the same place, of course, but I don’t think there’s anything in it offensive to Jewish beliefs.

    Gil, I hope you’re joking. :-)

  202. IH says:

    See annotations of the source text from Matthew at http://tinyurl.com/d269k9v (if Google Books preview is not available from Israel, its p. 13 in The Jewish Annotated NT which, is also previewable on Amazon).

  203. joel rich says:

    http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2012/04/among_nj_orthodox_jewish_women.html

    Interesting article – basically the organization’s complaint is “judges look at religion as one factor in a custody dispute and generally view stability to be in children’s best interests.”

    There was a companion article -not online- whose complaint was orthodox women are not whatever enough to accept those who leave the fold or leave it themselves.

    KT

  204. IH says:

    Has anyone applied queuing theory to work out the implications of:

    וְקָרֵב פְּזוּרֵינוּ מִבֵּין הַגּויִם. וּנְפוּצותֵינוּ כַּנֵּס מִיַּרְכְּתֵי אָרֶץ. וַהֲבִיאֵנוּ לְצִיּון עִירְךָ בְּרִנָּה. וְלִירוּשָׁלַיִם בֵּית מִקְדָּשְׁךָ בְּשמְחַת עולָם. וְשָׁם נַעֲשה לְפָנֶיךָ אֶת קָרְבְּנות חובותֵינוּ תְּמִידִים כְּסִדְרָם וּמוּסָפִים כְּהִלְכָתָם:

    given current population?

  205. Yehoshua Friedman says:

    Regarding the egg donation article, how kosher is YU if it’s serving Beacon and eggs?

  206. Steve Brizel says:

    IH-what is “queuing theory”, and its relevance to the quoted verse?

  207. IH says:

    Steve — on the supply side there are constraints of time and space which would inform how many korbanot could be made. Or, more interesting, looking at it from the demand side: how big a Beit Mikdash and numbers of active Mizbechot would be needed to satisfy our present day population.

    This can all be mathematically modeled and I’m asking if someone has done it and published the results.

  208. Steve Brizel says:

    IH-Interesting idea, but it does sound like Hilcasa LMishicha at the present.

  209. mycroft says:

    “Steve — on the supply side there are constraints of time and space which would inform how many korbanot could be made. Or, more interesting, looking at it from the demand side: how big a Beit Mikdash and numbers of active Mizbechot would be needed to satisfy our present day population.

    This can all be mathematically modeled and I’m asking if someone has done it and published the results”

    The present worldwide Jewish population is on the order of magnitude from 1/4 to 2/3 of the worldwide Jewish population before churban bayis sheini-not a quantum change-if one reads about korban Pesach they had no problem shechtim them all back then.

  210. Steve Brizel says:

    Re R Gil’s letter to the JW, look at it this way-the article in question merely focused on four reasons to attend a school other than YU-price, profession, parochialism and partying.

  211. Steve Brizel says:

    Can anyone vouch for the denomination and background of the clergyman , if any,who presided at the ceremony discussed in the following linked article?http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/fashion/weddings/chris-barley-and-marc-kushner-vows.html?ref=style

  212. IH says:

    For a sense of scale, the Hajj occurs over 5 days. In 2008, there were around 2.5m participants, of which a subset can be seen in this photo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Al-Haram_mosque_-_Flickr_-_Al_Jazeera_English.jpg

    As I understand it, the space you see (the courtyard of The Great Mosque) can accomodate 300,000 people at one time and is 16,000 square metres in size.

    There are about 13.5m Jews worldwide.

  213. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    re: quering theory question — havent done analysis, but there is a gemara (and a josephus) that says several million ppl did korban pesach (at 22 ppl / “seh”, which other gemaras say was a “bet avot” for pesach.) (i believe the gemara says several hundred thousand “se’im”.)

    i had an interest in this issue several years ago. did some research then, but not from this analysis.

    also, there was only one mizbeach, not mizbachot as you say. though today, when we can make a korban pesach “bachutz” (a whole other story), this would not apply.

    2. regarding the nyt “wedding” announcement. its a cousin of that “k”, not a brother. of course, makes no difference. his “preference” was commomn knwoledge in nj, for a long time.

  214. IH says:

    Thanks MMhY. Yes, I know there was only one mizbeach then; but…

  215. Jon Baker says:

    So will R Weintraub be kicked out of the RA for officiating at an intermarriage?

  216. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    jon b — not only do they not have a pblm with intermarriage, its a “good” relationship that he’s promoting.

    anyway, the ny bd of rabbis that forbids intermarriage, not the RA. and they have a loose definition of intermarriage (i.e., does not forbid patrilineal descent.)

  217. Lawrence Kaplan says:

    The RA, while not recognizing same-sex unions, allows individual rabbis to officiate at same-sex marriage ceremonies.

  218. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    does that include legal same sex marriages (which i asssume this was, per the nyt.)?

    either way, jon b’s question revolved around the intermarriage aspects.

  219. IH says:

    The article states Chris Barley converted to Judaism.

  220. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    IH — sorry, i guess the RA recognizes the conversion. just like they allow indiv C rabbis to accept patrineal descent.

  221. IH says:

    No idea, but why assume the conversion was not standard Conservative?

  222. Jon Baker says:

    IH – also, I don’t see the relevance of your pasuk to Korban Pesach, which confused me. Queueing theory (how many other words do you know that have five consecutive vowels? Onomatopoeiae?) is meaningful when you have a lot of processes and a lot of servers – but the temidim and musafim are one per day. Each may consist of several parts, but still one per day, maybe two (v’et musfei yom hashabbat hazeh v’yom tov hazeh…)

  223. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    korban pesach — many processes — a few hundred thousand in the gemara and in josephus. many servers — i believe all “mishmarot” were called in for that. limited time — afternoon only. three “katot”.

    ono… is prob not an english word. prob greek. of course, queue is british, not american english. please send me your cheque. by post.

 
 

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