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Why I Dread Purim
Senior Zionist Rabbis Reach Out to IDF Chief of Staff
Spain displays long-hidden remnants of expelled Jewish community
Course teaches Haredi girls job market skills
Trove of Medieval Manuscripts Could Shed New Light on Afghanistan’s Jewish Heritage
Restoring the lost legacies of European Jewish composers
Fogels are remembered on first yahrtzeit
Jews, Damned Jews, and Sociologists
Modesty Patrol mistakes teacher of converts for missionary
Gen. Grant’s Uncivil War Against The Jews
Abuse Case Raising Statute Questions
R Aviner: Religious community is paranoid
R Cherlow: Haaretz is better than Yated
SALT Thursday
YU Torah Purim to Go
Sabbath Observing Texas High School Does More for Faith Than Tebow
Israeli lawmakers slam ultra-Orthodox radio station for keeping women off the air
Urging synagogues to adapt to an era of choice
Orthodox Second-Time Singles
A Soldier Connects to His Jewish Roots During Basic Training
Chabad opposes stamps commemorating rabbis
Double Trauma for ‘Hidden Children’
Raised Christian, But Jewish by Birth
The Softspoken Man Behind Times of Israel
When Restricts Forbids Lending
Who critiques the critics?
SALT Wednesday
Women Seek Role in Deciding Halacha
Disenchanted Chasid turns to the military
Buffalo’s Oldest Synagogue May Be Destroyed
Jewish Agency sending $1 million in emergency aid to Greece’s Jews
Prepare now for a safe and happy Purim
Rabbis spar over religious dilemma in IDF
Circumcision Debate Heats Up in Colorado
Jewish School’s Team, Refusing to Play During Sabbath, Loses Trip to State Semifinals
The “last word” on Milwaukee vouchers
Rabbi’s phone-in lessons all the rage among IDF’s elite
A History of Horses in the Divided Kingdom of Israel and Judah
OU Purim Safety Alert: Intoxication is Not a Mitzvah
SALT Tuesday
Dave Camp pressed on aide’s refusal to give a get
5,000 People Attend Parnassah Expo in Lakewood
Minister to pay man after his ‘degrading’ arrest
Tzohar, Zaka unite for Purim coexistence project
C’tee OKs Bill to Give Chief Rabbis Chance at 2nd Term
Brother Suffragettes
Are We Getting Epicurious?
New group works on Israel-Diaspora ties
UJFC Votes to Oppose the Minnesota Marriage Amendment
Dr. Klafter’s critique of ruling against other-gender therapy
Life Insurance – If You Can’t Afford it… You definitely Need it!
R J Waxman: Why Not Make Aliyah?
Parents Held Hostage
Let Judaism thrive in the Jewish State
Calendar Reform and R JH Hertz
SALT Monday
Prior news & links posts
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Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the founder, publisher and editor-in-chief of Torah Musings.

 
The opinions and facts here are presented solely by the author. Torah Musings assumes no responsibility for them. Please address religious questions to your rabbi.
 

158 Responses

  1. Jenny says:

    The last line of the article about the Parnassa expo is absolutely incredible. I’m blown away. Is there any wonder why the Jewish community is experiencing financial problems?

    “The Learn and Network Kollel now has $20,000 in chovos due to the cost of the event. Anyone who wishes to take part in this avodas hakodesh of helping people with parnassah can do so by donating here.”

  2. joel rich says:

    Regarding why not make aliya I again post R’ Aharon Lichtenstein’s thoughts on those who keep the shemitta not as fully as they might like (based on how Hillel felt when he introduced prozbol). It’s true that many have reasons to not make aliya right now (and each of us must judge the validity of the reasons, but we should imho never make the mistake of feeling living in galut is lchatchila :

    “This also describes our situation today with regard to the agricultural prohibitions of shemitta. Formally, perhaps, all has been taken care of, but we do not observe the land’s year of rest. We, including both supporters and opponents of the heter, those who shop as usual and those who consult regularly with calendars and charts, are not meshamet (observing shemitta), but rather mishtamet (shirking our responsibility). I see no way to save the situation in the foreseeable future. At very least, however, we must sense the pain, just as Hillel felt the pain in his day. With no alternative, we will use the various heterim and means of circumvention, and we will bow our heads in humble submission to reality. But let us not resign ourselves to it. Let us admit to our failure and feel genuine distress, hoping that the Almighty will make good our loss.”

    KT

  3. yakov says:

    you’ve got to find a way to make these news and links posts show up in a feedreader

  4. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “At very least, however, we must sense the pain, just as Hillel felt the pain in his day.”

    What is the source that Hillel felt pain over prozbol?

  5. joel rich says:

    A clear and logical mind?
    KT

  6. Tal Benschar says:

    What is the source that Hillel felt pain over prozbol?

    I am unaware of any direct source, but the situation as described by the gemara is certainly one that a believing Jew would feel pain over.

    In Gittin 36A, the Gemara quotes a Mishna in Sheviis (10:3) that Hillel saw that the Jewish nation refrained from loaning one another and therefore violated what is written in the Torah “Beware that there be not a wicked thought in thy heart, saying: ‘The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand'; and thine eye be evil against thy needy brother, and thou give him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin in thee.” So he therefore enacted prozbul.

    The word the Torah uses for the behavior of refraining from loaning in this sitaution is “bli’al” — which means exceptionally wicked. In fact, the word is used only twice in the Chumash, the other time being by Ir ha Nidachas (Dev. 13:14)

  7. James says:

    Is it really wise to drag the agunah issue into the public sphere? I think it does more harm than good.

  8. zalman says:

    Why would you post “Why Not Make Aliyah?” It is so devoid of serious consideration… though it contains a list of “reasons”.
    Aliyah can be hard. If you actually tried to work through the issues and hit a wall, kol hakovod to you, you tried. But if you don’t want to do the work, then just say that. Don’t PUBLISH a list of excuses.

    I await “Why Not Keep Shabbat”. Here let me help you get started:
    I like watching TV.
    Shul is way too long.
    I value my freedom.
    I know what rest means for me.

  9. Hirhurim says:

    I think there’s a difference between a biblical prohibition and an optional mitzvah.

  10. shaul shapira says:

    “▪ Let Judaism thrive in the Jewish State”

    “This system would be good for the haredim… as it would be for the non-religious, in that they will be able to vote for a secular humanist who can perform local weddings and funerals that affirm the character of their lives in Israel. It would also be good for the Druze, the Christians, the Muslims, and the many other sub-sectors of our society where the monopoly over tradition is no less problematic.”

    I don’t get why can’t they just tell us that they’re pushing for a medinah shel kol ezracheha? Why the subtefuge title?

  11. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    http://forward.com/articles/151840/
    next year, our friend in the legislature will pay mohalim.

    http://forward.com/articles/152094/
    at least this is worth fighting for.

  12. shaul shapira says:

    R Gil- It’s shishim yom kodem yom ha’atzmaut. Can we get something new about the religious zionism debate?

  13. shaul shapira says:

    “http://forward.com/articles/151840/
    next year, our friend in the legislature will pay mohalim.”

    Is this someone’s idea of a joke?

    “The debate over circumcision has spread to Colorado, where two lawmakers are seeking to reinstate Medicaid funding for the procedure after it was CUT last year.”

  14. Dov F. says:

    What did Camp do wrong? I don’t think this is fair to him.

  15. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    why dont they press Rep Camp on other agunot, like the israeli pow’s? and ester pollard?

    proves its just a feminist agenda. (and i dont have an argument against a feminist agenda.)

  16. JLan says:

    “why dont they press Rep Camp on other agunot, like the israeli pow’s? and ester pollard?

    proves its just a feminist agenda. (and i dont have an argument against a feminist agenda.)”

    Because he pays the creep? And what on earth does Esther Pollard, who to the best of my knowledge doesn’t want a divorce, have to do with the issue of agunot? (I don’t know whether any of the Israeli MIAs/POWs is married).

  17. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “proves its just a feminist agenda.”

    I would say it proves nothing of the kind but the statement is basically meaningless. What does “feminist agenda mean? We know what Ora’s agenda is; they make no secret of it. It’s to free agunot, like Friedman’s wife. So i guess it proves that they are doing exactly what their mission is. Good for them.

  18. Shalom Rosenfeld says:

    “Hospital emergency rooms get 3.5 times as many burn cases before and during Purim than during the rest of the year. Children suffer second and third-degree burns on their hands, face, neck and knees when playing with fireworks, cap pistols and other illegal explosives sold in stores and kiosks.”

    Lighting candles for Purim Seuda is a minhag found on the books but not one I’ve seen in practice. In light of the above, and the presence of inebriated folks, it’s sadly probably best left that way.

  19. Shalom Rosenfeld says:

    Re: Significance of horses in First Temple period.

    Gives more understanding to discussions like these:

    ויען אחד מעבדיו ויאמר, ויקחו-נא חמשה מן-הסוסים הנשארים אשר נשארו-בה, הנם ככל-ההמון (המון) ישראל אשר נשארו-בה, הנם ככל-המון ישראל אשר-תמו; ונשלחה, ונראה. ב ז,יד ויקחו, שני רכב סוסים

  20. GIL:

    back to the origial format?

  21. shaul shapira says:

    ▪ Disenchanted Chasid turns to the military

    I’m glad to see that someone else who was stuck broke free. someone should redt him to Deborah Feldman.

  22. anon says:

    Except that it seems that this guy didn’t divorce his wife in the end.

  23. i can’t find any link on artscroll’s website, but last night i saw a video presenting the development of an artscroll app. it’s really cool what they are doing with the shas for this app.

  24. The coolest feature is that in addition using it conventionally with two facing pages–which of course are scroll linked–you can use only the Aramaic side and click on a difficult word or phrase and the elucidation will float above. You can also enable vocalization of the text. Of course you can add notes, there are is a GPS-enabled feature to find local daf yomi shiurim, etc. I think, although I don’t recall for sure now, that there are hyperlinks. The app is being developed by Rusty Brick, so you know it’s going to be good.

    on the other hand see wieseltier’s essay http://www.tnr.com/article/washington-diarist/magazine/100979/library-books-paper-texts-voluminous?passthru=ZTllZTY1YTkxZTE3NzY2YTNkZTBjZmI3ZDRjYTliNDE

  25. S. says:

    So now someone can systematically analyze it. Nice.

  26. sp says:

    gil, the experiment of daily links was so much better. made conversations easier to follow and worked better with rss readers.

  27. Hirhurim says:

    sp: The majority of the feedback was for weekly rather than daily. Sorry. Majority rules.

  28. Rafael Araujo says:

    That’s why we need proportional representation and not first past the post here :)

  29. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    “who to the best of my knowledge doesn’t want a divorce, have to do with the issue of agunot? (I don’t know whether any of the Israeli MIAs/POWs is married).”

    they all want to be with their husbands (some are married.) thus they are classical agunot. you are so focused on the “agenda”, that you dont realize the practical matters.

    2. “they make no secret of it. It’s to free agunot, like Friedman’s wife. So i guess it proves that they are doing exactly what their mission is. ”

    actually, they only take on selective cases. not every agun / aguna case that comes to them. protexia (and agenda) plays a part, but they wont tell you that.

    3. the feminist agenda term i used was perhaps too harsh. i really mean an agenda (that borders on what is called feminism.)

    4. again, wrong title of article (not r gil’s fault.) it hasnt been a synagogue in buffalo for years. and prob has no historical jewish value. (disclaimer — spent a shabat at young israel of amherst / buffalo about twenty years ago.)

    5. from the school voucher article — “but some of that achievement may have come from the greater accountability that voucher supporters once resisted”

    does not apply to MO schools. they have (hopefully) advanced standards. (charedi, maybe. will force them to upgrade their inferior standards. if they choose to apply for a voucher program. if its not a “yehareg ve’al ya’avor” for them.)

  30. Tal Benschar says:

    “Sorry. Majority rules.”

    Except when it is an absolute dictatorship.

  31. mycroft says:

    “Hirhurim on February 27, 2012 at 5:34 pm
    I think there’s a difference between a biblical prohibition and an optional mitzvah”

    Agreed-BUT one has to be careful not to classify Yahadus in Western terms as a religion it is far more-tied up with nationhood and land.

  32. Dov F. says:

    “Women Seek Role in Deciding Halacha”

    Instead of bickering about what should or shouldn’t be, let a woman publish a few teshuvos and shtiklach Torah, and if they are good enough she will gain respect. And please don’t tell me it has been done. I am talking about real Torah, not a nice essay in modern Hebrew with most of the mar’eh mekomos being from some article some rabbi wrote. Everyone here knows what I mean by real Torah. Respect is earned.

    And the fact that there are men who might be respected who don’t fit into the above, is a reason not to respect those men,* not to further the craziness and also respect such women.

    *Obviously by “respect” here I refer to the added level of respect one accords to a legitimate talmid chacham.

  33. Joseph Kaplan says:

    “actually, they only take on selective cases. not every agun / aguna case that comes to them.”

    No organization takes on all matters related to their mission; to think otherwise is foolish. As to how they choose their cases, it needs more than simply MMHY’s say so since he is prone to say things like this w/o being able to back them up when asked to.,

  34. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    “No organization takes on all matters related to their mission”

    but dont say you are an advocacy org, if it depends on your opponent having retained an atty who is affiliated with your org.

    dont say you are a bare bones budget, when it consists almost exclusively of large salaries.

    dont be an exclusive referal agency to a particular bet din, not recognizing other batei din unless it suits your purpose.

    dont claim you will advocate for men who’se (ex)wives refuse to accept a get, and in practice reject all such cases.

  35. pink gun says:

    did we vote? i neglected to comment, but i very much prefer daily links.

  36. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    two comments on pressuring the congressman / employer

    a. possible issue of religious discrimination if he takes employment related action against him.

    b. claiming refusal to provide a get is a form of abuse is stretching the issue, prob hurting your cause / case.

  37. Joseph Kaplan says:

    (a) is an interesting issue (although I don’t think any of the employment discrimination laws apply to Congress).

    (b) is not; making a woman’s life hell and depriving her of the possibility of getting married and having children is certainly some sort of abuse.

  38. sp says:

    was there actually a poll of users? In reading the threads last week, it seemed people were negative at the beginning of the week, but no one was complaining (and really only complementing) towards the end.

  39. mycroft says:

    “shaul shapira on February 27, 2012 at 8:22 pm
    R Gil- It’s shishim yom kodem yom ha’atzmaut. Can we get something new about the religious zionism debate”
    tHEN ABOUT 40 DAYS BEFORE Pesach-% Iyyar =20th day of the Omer.

  40. i prefer the original weekly format

  41. sp says:

    abba’s rantings: why?

    the only advantage I see is that if there are multiple conversations flowing from different different days, you can read them all on one page (with also the side effect that it can mean articles from different days might more directly impact a conversation).

  42. Ozer Glickman says:

    I will not normally take seriously anonymous posters but I invite anyone with knowledge of improper practices at ORA to contact me at Yeshiva (ozer.glickman@yu.edu). I have helped resolve several cases for women with absolutely no influence other than the sincerity of their pain. I also have knowledge of salaries and other workings of the organization. Posting accusations under a pseudonym shows the dark side of the internet. If you believe you have real information, contact me or Rabbi Daniel Feldman and we will investigate. Otherwise, your posting is out of line.

  43. just visiting says:

    When I access comments on my mobile and there are multiple pages of comments, they show up all out of chronological order for some reason. Has anyone else noticed this?

  44. SP:

    “abba’s rantings: why?:

    it enables an interesting conversation to proceed over multiple days. practically speaking, a separate new post closes the conversation at the end of the day.

  45. Shlomo says:

    ▪ YU Torah Purim to Go

    I’m still waiting for YU Purim Torah to Go…

  46. Michael Feldstein says:

    ▪ YU Torah Purim to Go

    I’m still waiting for YU Purim Torah to Go…
    ———–

    LOL…it’s not your computer…I’m having the same problem

  47. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    1. i believe there is an exemption in (some) discrimination laws for congress. nevertheless, it makes for bad pr, as well as (one case i recall a few years ago) sanctions by the ethics committee. further, i’m sure a midwest congressman doesnt need his reelection campaign impugned by such (religious, let alone jewish, in a christian district) charges.

    2. some form of religious abuse is not real abuse. actually, the religious abuse is on the wife’s (supporters) side against the husband. note too — maryland legislature disagrees; they declined to pass a get law (for religious entanglement reasons). also, there is no bet din order to grant a get, just partisan arguing on both sides, for which ora has taken a side.

    3. 990 tax returns are public info, available on the net. they show nice salaries. claiming a shoestring budget is not appropriate (not that salaries arent earned, but dont cry shoestring.) and no published criteria for accepting cases. or for conflicts of interest. (they actually had a different conflict of another sort a few years ago, but later tax returns still showed salaries.)

  48. Joseph Kaplan says:

    Rabbi Glickman,

    Don’t expect MMHY to back up any of his anonymous claims. He likes to make them; he doesn’t, however, like to give any support for them, even when asked nicely.

  49. Hirhurim says:

    MMHY: I believe R. Glickman thought you were criticizing ORA for high salaries. My understanding is you just meant Jewish non-profits in general.

  50. sp says:

    “it enables an interesting conversation to proceed over multiple days. practically speaking, a separate new post closes the conversation at the end of the day.”

    Besides for the news posts, there’s at least one post a day here. Under that logic, conversation would only proceed on it for a single day, from experience that’s simply not true.

  51. SP:

    i was only referring to news & links posts. i didn’t notice any other changes on the site, at least from my non-mobile device.

    and i have the opposite experience with the non News & Links posts. generally once a new post appears, the comments on previous post dies out very quickly. that’s generally what i’ve seen

  52. emma says:

    Gil, I think it is clear MMhY is refering to ORA salaries specifically. As he states they are public knowledge. I heard other criticize them and looked them up once (most recent year i found easily is 2008) and did not find them excessive. How much/little does someone have to make before MMhY is willing to call it a real “shoestring”?

  53. shaul shapira says:

    “Israeli lawmakers slam ultra-Orthodox radio station for keeping women off the air”

    Kfiyah anti-datit if there ever was one…

    (Of course they made sure to crack dow. on the pirate stations first.)

  54. mycroft says:

    “into the public sphere? I think it does more harm than good.”
    There are tradeoffs in bringing matters to public attention.

  55. Ploni says:

    The correct link for Rabbi Mordechai Torczyner’s”The Joy of Giving” on the YU Torah Purim to Go page is:

    http://www.yutorah.org/togo/purim/articles/Purim_To_Go_-_5772_Rabbi_Torczyner.pdf

  56. Moshe Shoshan says:

    “Women Seek Role in Deciding Halacha”

    Dov F.,
    Knowing peronsonally a significant portion of the rabbanim and rabbaniot who make up beit hillel, I can say with some confidence that the article portrayed the group as more left wing than it really is.

    However, your demand that women produce teshuvot is nonsensical. The vast majority of rabbis hwho pskin hilchos, shabbos, nida and even more “elite” areas of halakha do not produce teshuvos, and are not qualified to. They are only asking for women to be allowed to paskin according to their level of ability, which in some cases is quite high compared tot he average pulpit rabbi

  57. mycroft says:

    ” It’s true that many have reasons to not make aliya right now (and each of us must judge the validity of the reasons, but we should imho never make the mistake of feeling living in galut is lchatchila :”

    AS ONE WHO LIVES IN NORTH AMERICA It is certainly a very deficient aspect of my Jewishness that I live here.

  58. mycroft says:

    “What Rackover wants to know is why the rabbis should criticize this “abomination” and not others”

    from

    “Yet Rackover, who agrees that gay marriage is not halachically acceptable, takes issue with these rabbis. He wrote a column in response to “Orthodox Rabbis Stand on Principle,” noting that the Orthodox community spends a disproportionate amount of time attacking this particular issue, while many others (he names child sex abuse, serious gender discrimination and poverty as examples) are left alone. In it, he is is outwardly exasperated with the eagerness of the “Orthodox Rabbis Stand On Principle” signers, writing “Big News! The Torah and Orthodox understanding of Halacha prohibit gay marriage. Who knew?” But he continues, “An Orthodox rabbi myself, I happen to agree that this was not an Orthodox wedding. But I think these rabbis’ response is a much bigger problem than two Orthodox gay men seeking a way to dignify their relationship through marriage.” What Rackover wants to know is why the rabbis should criticize this “abomination” and not others”

  59. Nachum says:

    As Tevye would say, if they would agree, I would agree. If the homosexualists stop being so vociferous, us normal people could relax. Not until then.

  60. IH says:

    “if…us normal people could relax.”

    Nachum — the empirical facts as seen in professional polling is that tolerance of homosexual relationships is now normal. Your strong views may have grounding in history, but are no longer representative of “us normal people”.

  61. HAGTBG says:

    Gil, don’t bother posting my prior comments. I figure, after 18 hours of them being in moderation, they are buried enough that there would be no point, even if it was published. And clearly it is causing you some sort of bother.

  62. IH says:

    From the newly released paperback of Putnam’s American Grace p. 561:

    Supports gay marriage: 
               18-29.   30-59.   60+.     Total
    2006:  48%.      33%.    23%.     34%
    2011:  60%.      42%.    32%.     43%

  63. Nachum says:

    Wow, IH. Citing polls in support of what is “normal.”

    Hmmm, let’s try another:

    Thinks Jesus is the son of God: about 75-80%

    I guess we won’t be seeing you on the Jewish blogs anymore, hm?

    It’s also nice to see your parochialism at work. Who, exactly, is being polled here?

  64. aiwac says:

    Why is there no mention of the latest Tradition? I, for one, thought the article on RDH’s new book was an interesting read.

    On a side note, writing on Hirhurim has gotten me to use more and more acronyms. You’d think we were in Tzahal or something…:)

  65. Hirhurim says:

    I never received the latest Tradition. I downloaded the Slifkin-Bleich exchange and will probably comment on it. But I don’t have time to read the whole journal electronically.

  66. “During the remainder of his life, Grant demonstrated that his apology was genuine. He appointed more Jews to public office than all previous presidents combined, and spoke out for Jewish rights on multiple occasions.”

    most importantly he appointed benjamin peixotto america’s first consul to bucharest. america didn’t need a consul there but it was part of american jewry’s program to assist a besieged rumanian jewry

  67. Steve Brizel says:

    This is great breaking news re the Beren Academy’s game in the Texas basketball tournament. http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/03/01/3091916/orthodox-ballers-sue-texas-school-school-district

  68. Tal Benschar says:

    “What Rackover wants to know is why the rabbis should criticize this “abomination” and not others”

    Because there is a concerted effort to have it considered as not an abomination.

  69. Dov F. says:

    Moshe Shoshan –

    However, your demand that women produce teshuvot is nonsensical. The vast majority of rabbis who pskin hilchos, shabbos, nida and even more “elite” areas of halakha do not produce teshuvos, and are not qualified to. They are only asking for women to be allowed to paskin according to their level of ability, which in some cases is quite high compared tot he average pulpit rabbi.

    I don’t understand you. Are we talking about halachos which are mefurash and don’t require one to be medameh mi’milsa lemilsa? Who is stopping a woman from opening up a Shulchan Aruch and following what it says? That isn’t what p’sak means, and it isn’t what they want. The want to say chiddushim, and to be medameh milsa lemilsa. So let them show that they know how, and earn that respect.

    And no average pulpit rabbi is paskening anything either. Any average pulpit rabbi who rules based on his reasoning without adequately showing support for his view, is ripped apart. So, as I said, being that they appear to be interested in p’sak, and not just reading the Shulchan Aruch or Mishna Berura, let them prove themselves like everyone else.

  70. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Tal,
    do you really think that all these statments against homosexuality have had any impact on the legitimization of it in the wider society?
    Its quite clear to me that the attack on homosexuals by the Religious Right, of which many Orthodx rabbonim are full members, are carried out as part of a larger “culture war” against the forces of Liberalism. The problem in my eyes is that so many people on both sides of the spectrum have such a simplistic Manichean view of the world.

  71. Hirhurim says:

    I believe the point is that there has not been any significant contribution by women to traditional Torah literature. Yes, some great Tanakh studies and a very few summaries of practical halakhah (e.g. Dr. Dena Zimmerman’s excellent English book) but where are the Torah journal articles explaining a difficult Tosafos or a sefer of lomdishe chakiros? I can only rarely write something like that but I have trouble taking seriously a group that has failed to produce any. Presumably they don’t value that kind of literature but they must value some sort of traditional rabbinic literature. Yet women haven’t produced anything of any serious quality (at least of which I am aware, and I’ve seen some failed attempts). If you want to gain respect, publish things that are so good that every serious talmid chacham will want, and even kollelniks in Lakewood will hide the sefarim in their cabinets.

  72. GIL:

    “I believe the point is that there has not been any significant contribution by women to traditional Torah literature”

    can probably be said about 99% of rabbonim as well?

  73. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Dov,
    this is a semantic issue. I have no problem with your definition of psak. but I dont think that is what was meant in the article.

    Also, there is no clear line between “just repeating the SA” and chidushim. Rabbis who are not “poskim” make judgment calls all the time. even balabatim are medameh davar ledavr when they use the shmiras shabbos kehilchasa and apply it to a slightly different case that is stated in the text. In many cases there is no reason why an intelligent educated baalabos should no this.

  74. Dov F. says:

    Gil – Thank you, that is exactly my point.

  75. Hirhurim says:

    Abba: Certainly more than half have published a Torah journal article at some point in their lives, even if only while in their prime in yeshiva. Many have done significantly more. Although I agree that many male rabbis do not deserve the title.

  76. Dov F. says:

    Moshe Shoshan –

    even balabatim are medameh davar ledavr when they use the shmiras shabbos kehilchasa and apply it to a slightly different case that is stated in the text. In many cases there is no reason why an intelligent educated baalabos should no this.

    That is a terrible thing. My rabbe’im would shray chai vekayam about this phenomenon. They should stop, and we certainly should put a stamp if approval on it.

  77. Dov F. says:

    Unless the similarity is extremely obvious of course. But you don’t need a stamp of approval to be able to do that. Who’s saying a woman can’t look up a halacha in her halacha sefer and follow it?

  78. Hirhurim says:

    I should add that I don’t consider this an argument against women’s ordination bevause I am sure women will eventually offer serious contributions to traditional Torah literature. They just haven’t so far.

  79. GIL:

    “Certainly more than half have published a Torah journal article at some point in their lives”

    i’d be very surprised if this were true, but even if true, how many of these torah journal articles honestly can be described, as you qualified it, as a “significant contribution . . . to traditional Torah literature”

    thanks for linking to “A Soldier Connects to His Jewish Roots During Basic Training”

  80. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Gil,
    I fundamentally agree. the infrastructure and the critical mass of advanced womens learning aren’t there yet. Furthermore advanced gemara and halakha study remain pretty marginal in the MO/RZ community.

    But on the other hand, how many “chidushim” has R. Ovadiah published. On a different level, how about R. Broyde. There should be no affirmative action for women in this field, but neither should they be set unreasonably high just to keep the girls out of the good old boys club.

  81. Hirhurim says:

    Abba: Most articles have some interesting idea in them.

    Moshe: Aderaba, both R. Ovadiah and R. Broyde gained their reputations by publishing in Torah journals. While their articles aren’t lomdish, they are sufficiently original to command attention. I’m not sure I agree with the “critical mass” argument. There are some brilliant women. I think there’s just a lack of interest.

  82. Moshe Shoshan says:

    On re-reading the article, I think that this is really about a stupid Forward headline. The quote from the article from Oshra Koren, who is no radical feminist, about women joining “the halakhic conversation, does not seem to refer to psak by any definition. Rather she seems to be saying that the should be female leaders who represent and express the needs and concerns of women directly to poskim and to be able to express and be taken seriously how they view the halakha.

  83. Dov F. says:

    Moshe Shoshan –

    I am not opposed, in principle, to a woman paskening. But when they have not shown anything for themselves and are pushing for it anyway, it just seems ludicrous. Yes, maybe this is a boys club, but that isn’t even relevant. Practically speaking, no serious yeshiva guy will ever respect a woman posek who doesn’t have what to show for herself, but just might go buy her sefer if she does. So instead of making noise, if they wish to change things, that’s what they should be working on.

  84. aiwac says:

    “There should be no affirmative action for women in this field”

    Agreed. Doing otherwise will simply permanently devalue the real achievements of women in the halachic world when it comes.

    “I think there’s just a lack of interest”

    Why is that? There are plenty of interesting works by women in other fields (philosophy, for instance).

  85. Dov F. says:

    Moshe Shoshan –

    female leaders who represent and express the needs and concerns of women directly to poskim

    I am all for that. Is that really not common at all?

    and to be able to express and be taken seriously how they view the halakha.

    I wouldn’t care how anyone views halacha unless one actually properly know the halacha and its background. You don’t have a representative of the food industry telling the rabbis how he feels the halachos of kashrus should work.

  86. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Dov,
    the women we are talking about have plenty of halakhic knowledge enough to have an intelligent opinion on the matter even if a final decision requires a posek.

    I dont think that we really disagree much.

    Also, I have been noticing that places like migdal oz and Lindenbaum seem to be developing their own culture of talmud torah which is different from what we are familiar with in yeshivas of the litvitsh tradition. By and large the women who engaged in high level study seem to have little interest in publishing. I dont know why this is.

  87. Nachum says:

    Gil, I’m not saying you’re wrong, but you should be honest enough to admit that you’ve basically set your own standard in saying that “lomidshe chakiros” are what makes a serious Torah scholar. There are some people out there who think that serious learning need not necessarily involve Tosfos, chakiros, or Brisk.

  88. aiwac says:

    Moshe,

    What is the nature of this culture? What are its goals and methods?

  89. Dov F. says:

    Moshe –

    Yes, it seems we’re pretty much on the same page here.

    Nachum –

    I think all Gil is saying is that practically speaking that is what it takes to get acknowledged.

  90. Tal Benschar says:

    Tal,
    do you really think that all these statments against homosexuality have had any impact on the legitimization of it in the wider society?

    In the Jewish society, certainly yes. The trends in the ouside world inevitably seep into the Jewish world, and that is why rabbonim speak up about it.

    In the general world, the effect is marginal at best.

    Furthermore, the phrase “all these statements” implies that that is all rabbonim talk about. It is one of many topics discussed. In the total scheme of things, and given that this is a major issue in society AND there is a major push in the wrong direction, I don’t believe the attention given to it is out of proportion.

  91. Hirhurim says:

    Nachum: There were Torah journals before Reb Chaim was even born and plenty today that aren’t Brisker. You don’t have to be a Brisker to say an original peshat in Tosafos.

  92. pedantic says:

    Other than Haskalah journals, what Torah journals were there before Reb Chaim was born (1853)?

  93. Hirhurim says:

    Didn’t R. Yaakov Ettlinger publish a journal?

  94. pedantic says:

    Good point, although that’s only one. Mea culpa.

  95. avi says:

    “I believe the point is that there has not been any significant contribution by women to traditional Torah literature”

    can probably be said about 99% of rabbonim as well?

    has the torah world forgotten nachama leibowitz so quickly?

  96. joel rich says:

    http://www.vosizneias.com/102042/2012/03/01/new-york-schottenstein-gemara-revolutionary-artscroll-digital-talmud-app-to-debut-this-summer-video

    “We have a mandate from R’ Gifter that we must harness technology and use it make Torah accessible to as many people as possible,” Rabbi Zlotowitz told VIN News

    1.Stanley Kubrick and Arthur C Clarke lips must be moving in the grave
    2.Is it coincidence that rav gifter was niftar in 2001?
    3. who is the current gadol who authorizes the technology (and what it might lead to-e.g. the color coding can easily lead to a revadim method, the connectivity required will require safeguards)
    4. repagination of the entire shas sounds like a slippery slope.

    I guess the camel’s nose under the tent just got bigger – but LBJ understood the dialectic of tent positioning (dai lchakimah brimiza)?

    KT

  97. joel rich says:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4197057,00.html

    The source of this change, similar to many changes in ultra-orthodox society, is the growing desire for individualism and self fulfillment and the decision to pursue these goals, even when they contradict the need to maintain the communal, conservative structure of society.

    ————————
    which raises the question do you try to hold back the inevitable or channel it? i suppose only time will tell in an objective sense, but that , of course, doesn’t neccesarily measure the ratzon hashem. life is complex :-)
    KT

  98. AVI:

    “has the torah world forgotten nachama leibowitz so quickly?”

    gil specifically exlcluded tanach studies

    GIL:

    “There were Torah journals before Reb Chaim was even born”

    how many? 1?

  99. Hirhurim says:

    Abba: Did you entirely miss my point or just mainly? There is no need to take it so literally.

  100. GIL:

    “Did you entirely miss my point”

    i guess so. please spell it out for me. thanks.

  101. Hirhurim says:

    There have been plenty of non-Brisker journals.

  102. GIL:

    without going back to check, i thought nachum’s point was that torah journals in general are a relatively modern phenomenon

  103. Hirhurim says:

    Abba: I believe his point was that publishing an article in a Torah journal implies adopting the Brisker method.

  104. MiMedinat HaYam says:

    regarding journals — if it wouldnt be for anti internet issues, the torah journals of the future will be blogs.

    plenty of non brisker journals, but not used in yeshivish world.

    yes, every tom dick and harry writes chiddushim, puts it in some journal, but would they write a book / sefer? (actually, some do, and the same comes of it. gathers dust.)

    but it adds to his “resume”. but not hers, cause they (f) dont.

  105. Nachum says:

    Gil, you were the one giving chakiras (and Tosfos) as a requirement. I’m just wondering how many chakiras the Vilna Gaon made.

    My point is that there’s more than one way to look at Gemara. Lots of the Sephardi gedolim would flunk your test.

  106. avi says:

    ““has the torah world forgotten nachama leibowitz so quickly?”

    gil specifically exlcluded tanach studies”

    Why just to exclude her?

  107. Hirhurim says:

    Nachum: My point is that there’s more than one way to look at Gemara. Lots of the Sephardi gedolim would flunk your test.

    I don’t see the point at all. Plenty of Sephardi Gedolim say very interesting things within traditional Talmud study — and do say original interpretations of Rishonim. My only point was that if you want to be considered an expert in traditional rabbinics, you have to contribute to the literature.

    Avi: No, because while Parshanut is certainly important, it has little connection to halakhah.

  108. mycroft says:

    “I don’t see the point at all. Plenty of Sephardi Gedolim say very interesting things within traditional Talmud study — and do say original interpretations of Rishonim. My only point was that if you want to be considered an expert in traditional rabbinics, you have to contribute to the literature.”

    Why? Oe could be an expert on literature wo making up chiddushim for the sake of chiddushim-what is Torah academe which is publish or perish.

  109. mycroft says:

    “Avi: No, because while Parshanut is certainly important, it has little connection to halakhah”

    One could know all Shas and Yersushalmi to boot and theoretically not know Halacha-so what.

  110. mycroft says:

    Rabbi Weinrib’s JP column on Purim, alcohol etc is very important sadly “our society” at times takes drinking for granted-and there is still sadly a flippancy about Purim even by some of those who are being quoted regularly by at least some by Hihurim bloggers.

  111. mycroft says:

    From Link

    When many religious people hear criticism against them they begin shouting ‘Shmad’. What Shmad? Did anyone call for killing or doing something against religious Jews? He wishes to hear women sing because he wishes to hear women sing. That’s it. Why do you think this is against you? He hears women singing even when religious Jews are not present. The chilonim also want the religious to take part in the ceremonies. What do you think that they want people to begin steaming out when singing begins? Of course they don’t!”

    “The chilonim are not trying to prove anything. This is not a cultural war. The IDF simply wants everyone to participate, that’s all. They are not trying to win us over. The cultural divide has always existed”.

  112. Tal Benschar says:

    Mycroft:

    Let’s translate your “Link” a bit so we understand what’s at stake:

    “The IDF is merely holding a pig roast. Heck, the chilonim eat pig even when Charedim are not around. They aren’t trying to shmad you. They just want you to participate in one big happy event. It’s not a culture war, just a social event. The fact that they will court-martial you if you refuse to put that pork in your mouth is nothing. Why are the Charedim so uptight?”

  113. mycroft says:

    “““has the torah world forgotten nachama leibowitz so quickly?””

    Did the “torah world” ever really recogniuze Nechama Leibowitz?

  114. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Tal

    The is a big difference between a pig roast and a woman singing. Like it or not, the is a history of psak requiring soldiers to stay when women are singing in certain circumstances. Indeed, not long ago the rav harashi himself remained are ceremony when there was kol isha, using the time to catch up on his tehillim. Forcing soldiers to eat pork would be shmad and if it were to happen the entire those same rabbonim would call on their students to refuse regardless of the cost. You really sont understand the mindset of the hesder roshei yeshiva and poskim. Unless you agree that its amitzva to serve in the army, your position on this is irrelavent. This is not about chareidim in the army- no one ever said that they would have to hear kol isha. indeed, chareidim inthe army are guaranteed a female-free environment.

  115. Tal Benschar says:

    This is not about chareidim in the army- no one ever said that they would have to hear kol isha. indeed, chareidim inthe army are guaranteed a female-free environment

    I think the current IDF Chief Rabbi would disagree.

  116. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Not from what I read in the extensive interview with him in mekor rishon.

    Of course if it happened that they were order to listen to kol isha in a madatory ceremony, from the perspective of the rabbanur zvait they would have to do so. But the “chareidi” (a very signifcant percentage of soldiers in chariedi fram works are not in fact chareidi)soldiers would have very good grounds to demand the the officer be punished for giving the order.

    There has been a lot of propaganda in the chareidi world about how the army has “betrayed” them and about some sort of conspiracy against Torah true Judasim. But its simply false. Yes there is a lot of hatred against chareidim, but with the exception of the far left, this is largely in response to the chareidi refusal to work, serve in the army or recognize the legitimacy of the state and its laws.

  117. Shlomo says:

    Did the “torah world” ever really recogniuze Nechama Leibowitz?

    Did the “torah world” ever recognize Tanach study at all?

  118. Death Be Not Proud says:

    כֵּן-צְדָקָה לְחַיִּים; וּמְרַדֵּף רָעָה לְמוֹתוֹ

  119. Hirhurim says:

    I don’t really understand the knee-jerk reaction. I am sure that it is more dangerous to drive on the road than to perform metzitzah be-feh yet most of us not only accept that danger for ourselves but also for our children. Hospitals even release newborn babies directly into cars, despite the danger. Everything in life has risk and we accept a certain threshold of risk depending on the benefits.

    If you think that metzitzah be-feh has no value, as I do, then you won’t accept any risk. None of my sons had it. But if you think it is an integral part of bris milah, as even some non-Chasidic poskim like the Binyan Tziyon did, then you will accept some risk.

    One baby dying because of his bris milah proves nothing. We already knew that it poses some risk. The question is how much of a risk, and this story does not add any information.

  120. The Price of Haredism says:

    What about Pikuah Nefesh? Why is more important to be machmir on a Metzizah Bepeh than on Pikuah Nefesh? Once we become lenient with Pikuah Nefesh how far do we take it?

    I would suggest that the key issue is political not religious. If Goyim or non-Charedi Jews worry about a tradition it must be upheld at all costs even if it means that some of our children will die.

    This is the definition of a “knee-jerk reaction.”

  121. Hirhurim says:

    So I assume you never drive because of pikuach nefesh? Or are you willing to do anything in order to eat in a restaurant? If you love your children, you will never let them into a car. Or maybe we have to allow for a certain threshold of risk.

  122. The Price of Haredism says:

    The analogy is a false one. If you do not drive anywhere you will damage your child’s possibilities of leading a succesfull life. There are real world consequence that are very serious.

    Metzitzah bepeh is a ritual. There are many, many poskim who do not think it is necessary. As I understand it (I am not a posek), lechol Hade’ot not performing it does not pasul the bris.

    So why stand firm on the absolute necessity of performing this even though children die?

    I think the only answer is political.

  123. joel rich says:

    Why not require that the parents be informed of the risk and the reward/lack of hiddur and let them make the decision?
    KT

  124. Hirhurim says:

    The analogy is not false. Everything has risks and you regularly accept them within certain thresholds if the benefit is worthwhile. You can’t demand that people accept your posek rather than their own.

    If the risk was huge, no posek would allow metzitzah be-feh. But the reality is that it is performed every day and disease is extremely rare. If you want to forbid the practice, prove that the risk is substantial and every posek — including Chasidic poskim — will forbid it.

  125. R’ Joel:

    “Why not require that the parents be informed of the risk and the reward/lack of hiddur and let them make the decision?”

    my pediatrician has a stack of anti-metzitza pamphlets in his office. although i guess for first-time parents this is useless, as by the time they come to the office the bris has already taken place.

  126. Hirhurim says:

    Would you be OK if the pediatrician also had anti-bris milah pamphlets? I wouldn’t, even if mainstream society decides it is a barbaric practice.

  127. The Price of Haredism says:

    We know a child died five years ago. We don’t if other children died that weren’t reported. How many dead babies is too many? One every three years? One a year? More than that?

    How would you feel is you were the father of that child and didn’t know that Metzizah Bepeh wasn’t halakhically necessary and so had a baby die for nothing?

  128. Hirhurim says:

    I know more children who have died in swimming pools than who have been even alleged to have died from metzitzah be-feh. What are we going to do about that?

    I agree that parents should be warned about the dangers but I’m not comfortable with doctors doing it. I think it should be done by rabbis and mohalim. The truth is, though, that parents from communities where it is commonly done will not take such warnings seriously.

    Again you say that it isn’t halakhically necessary. You have no right to tell people that they have to follow your posek.

  129. The Price of Haredism says:

    If Rabbis and Mohels do not tell parents about the dangers of Metzizah Bepeh that is terribly immoral and the blood of the dead children is on their heads.

  130. The Price of Haredism says:

    You also did not answer my question why it is not more important to be Machmir on Pikuah Nefesh?

  131. The Price of Haredism says:

    What I fear is going on is that children’s lives are being risked with by Charedi leaders to uphold the abstract principle that the charedi world should not be influenced by the “goyish velt” (which includes MO, by the way)

  132. Hirhurim says:

    I did answer. A risk has to reach a significant threshold before we prohibit something. Just because someone dies does not automatically make it a significant risk. People die from swimming but no one prohibits it out of pikuach nefesh. Is it because swimmers don’t care about people’s lives? No, it is because the risk is minimal.

    No one has yet proven that the risk of metzitzah be-feh is anything but minimal.

    Those who consider metzitzah be-feh an integral part of the biblical mitzvah of milah are not going to abandon it unless the risk rises to the level of pikuach nefesh. This article does not indicate a significant risk. One baby every five years is less dangerous than driving.

  133. The Price of Haredism says:

    If I go swimming I know the risk. If I let my children go swimming I know the risk.

    Do you at least agree that Rabbis must inform parents that there is a risk of death and that there are poskim who say that doing MP is not halakhically necessary?

    Also, I observe that when the question is not a “hot-button issue” like MP, such as fasting on YK for old people, it is often related that the Brisker Rov and the Ponevizer Rov would be very meikil. When questioned, they would say “I’m not being meikel on YK (or Shabbos) I’m being Machmir on Pikuah Nefesh.”

  134. Hirhurim says:

    The Briskers were also meikel on metzitzah be-feh! And they also opposed fasting on days other than Yom Kippur and Tisha B’Av. That isn’t quite a mainstream ruling.

    I only think rabbis should warn people from outside their community, i.e. who don’t necessarily have that minhag. And I don’t think something that is really pikuach nefesh should be allowed just because parents know the risk.

  135. The Price of Haredism says:

    “I only think rabbis should warn people from outside their community, i.e. who don’t necessarily have that minhag.”

    Why? How does that fit with the analogy of the swimming pool?

  136. H G says:

    “If I let my children go swimming I know the risk.”

    Do you really?

  137. Moshe Shoshan says:

    Gil
    Lets get some thinks clear.
    If safety experts rule that it is too dangerous to swim in a certain place, its assur to swim there.
    If the consensus of doctors is that it is dangerous for a person with a certain condition to fast, its assur for them to fast.
    Doctors overwhelmingly think that there is nothing unsafe about a healthy adult fasting once in a while.
    If the overwhelming consensus of doctors say that metzizah b’peh poses a real public health risk, than its assur.
    Metzizah b’feh is not a deoraita, nor a derabban, its a minhag bealma. The fact the in a particular historical context some may have ruled other wise does not change this fact.
    Unlike in the 19th century, efforts to ban MbF are not part of an effort to ban Jewish practice in general or milah in particular.

  138. Nachum says:

    Gil, who do you think has the right to decide whether the baby lives? I’m sure the baby, if given the choice, would like to live. Neither you, nor the parents, nor any Jewish leaders or poskim have the right to decide otherwise.

    Judaism was pretty firmly instructed against child sacrifice oh, about 4,000 years ago. (It didn’t stop some people.)

    Knee-jerk? Yeah, it’s knee-jerk. Certain things have to be. Certain things can be over-intellectualized.

  139. Nachum says:

    Of course, the charedi world is well-known for sacrificing its children in other ways. Someone recently wrote about how this fits into the pattern of appeasing the gods we’ve seen throughout history. I must find the reference.

  140. mycroft says:

    “If the consensus of doctors is that it is dangerous for a person with a certain condition to fast, its assur for them to fast.
    Doctors overwhelmingly think that there is nothing unsafe about a healthy adult fasting once in a while”
    In practice fasting on Yom Kippur is certainly somewhat dangerous for some people the halachik test is does the danger rise to pikuach nefesh? Even though it is clear that fasting adds risk to the one fasting a heter may not be forthcoming.

  141. Hirhurim says:

    Moshe S: If the overwhelming consensus of doctors say that metzizah b’peh poses a real public health risk, than its assur.

    Like with most things in life, it depends on how the question is asked and is answered. Is it a life-threatening danger? How dangerous is it? I’m sure these doctors would also say that the practice of shirayim is a public health risk. Should the state step in and stop that practice as well?

    Metzizah b’feh is not a deoraita, nor a derabban, its a minhag bealma. The fact the in a particular historical context some may have ruled other wise does not change this fact.

    Absolutely correct except you neglected to say “According to some but far from all…” We do not have the right to tell others how they have to pasken. If we did, I would institute mandatory kneidlach at the Seder.

    Nachum: As I’ve taken pains to point out, no one is claiming that the risk is anything but minimal, less than the danger to ride in a car. There is no imminent risk to the baby’s life. You can claim it is, but people will laugh at you because everyone in their communities had metzitzah be-feh. It’s like people who say that pregnant women shouldn’t fast on Yom Kippur because it’s dangerous. Most peopl in the frum community were born from mothers who fasted on Yom Kippur.

  142. Nachum says:

    No. When it comes to babies dying, the line has be drawn. Sorry.

    By the way, how do you know (what with the rate of infant mortality and lack of knowledge of microbes) that this wasn’t always a problem?

  143. Hirhurim says:

    You subject your baby to risks the moment you take him outside where there are germs. Even immunizations have riskss. The question is how much risk and whether the benefit outweighs it. One case — which is what we are discussing — is tragic but statistically irrelevant. When my first child was born, we were told that letting her sleep on her stomach is dangerous and we were extremely vigilant about it. Most parents are not. Do they violate the pikuach nefesh mandate?

  144. Moshe Shoshan says:

    We cant tell people how to poskin, but we dont have to come to their defense when we think they are wrong.

    As for shirayim, my understanding is that some chasiddic courts have modified their practice to prevent public health dangers. In case where there is a serious flu going around that could kill older people, it should be assur.

    Ad far as what os considered pikuach nefesh, this requires some more sophisticated cost benefit analysis. We know that this is MbP is a minhag that will cause a certain number of preventable deaths. They question is is MbF important enough to allow for these deaths?
    Of course people will disagree on the importance of this practice, but are there any other cases thata we allow preventable death to occur in order to do mitzvah?

  145. Nachum says:

    Immunization? Really? Immunization confers a real advantage. Ditto riding in cars, yadda yadda. Metzitza b’feh confers none whatsoever. None. That you can bring them both up is telling.

    (Metzitza confers no benefit either, but at least it doesn’t hurt. The same goes for mitzvot in general.)

  146. Nachum says:

    I wonder where this absolutism is when it comes to the discussion under Amalek. :-)

  147. emma says:

    Totally with Gil here.
    Another example: People have died because their shabbos candles burned down the house. Incandescent lightbulbs don’t burn down houses nearly as much and work for shabbos candles according to some opinions. Does that mean that everyone has an obligation to be “machmir” on pikuach nefesh by using electric bulbs instead of candles?

  148. emma says:

    “Metzitza b’feh confers none whatsoever.”
    I think this is the heart of the issue. We modern types think metzitzah is all about some supposed medical issue and that it is not actually medically beneficial. But metzitzah has other connotations and import to those who practice it, was incorporated into rituals in ways that make it seem like it was not just medical, etc. Those who practice it think it has “benefits” like any other esoteric ritual. which is to say, not benefits discernible to us necessarily, but not ones we should so quickly dismiss.

  149. Nachum says:

    Well, they’re wrong. Yes, I believe in objective truth.

  150. emma says:

    “Well, they’re wrong.” Great argument.

 
 

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